By  Dayo Johnson & Dapo Akinrefon
CHIEF Reuben Fasoranti was a former Commissioner for Finance under the administration of the late sage Chief Adekunle Ajasin and now an acting Chairman of the Yoruba socio-political organisation, Afenifere, following the death of its leader the late Abraham Adesanya.

In this interview with Vanguard, Fasoranti spoke on 11 years of democracy, corruption in the country, the craze for money by politicians, the Amnesty granted militants in the Niger Delta region, the ambition of former military President, General Ibrahim Babangida, the crisis in the Afenifere and the Afenifere Renewal Group (ARG), why AD South West Governors lost out and were unable to secure second term in 2003 amongst other burning national issues. Excerpts:

Fasoranti

After eleven years of uninterrupted democracy in Nigeria, how would you assess our the journey so far, would you say we have fared any better?

It depends on what you mean. We have not performed well. I have been in it since 1999, I was an active participant. When we started, it was alright, Pa Adefarati was our governor in this state and election was peaceful; people conducted themselves properly, there was no thuggery and the people rejoiced when the election results were announced because they knew the people they voted for. Things went well too because government was transparently honest.

Many projects were embarked upon like free education;  schools were built, roads were constructed.  But we have not performed well as a nation. Talk of honesty, from a very low pedestal, you talk of attitude to work, it’s nothing to write home about. Everyday we have outstanding corruption in high places, not limited to this country and I’m sure what we are seeing is a tip of the iceberg.

Our attitude to work as a nation is negative, people are not hard working and people rely so much on government and that is why people are not working at all. The private sector is already destroyed. When you have no electricity, of course, there can be no industry. So, the spirit of the people is already down.

At what point did we get it wrong?

I think it’s the over exposure to plenty of money. People are now worshiping money and they think money can buy anything. In the past, there was honesty. It was a crime to attempt to defraud, but now, it is the order of the day. So, we have to re-examine ourselves.

How can that be done?

The leaders must show good example, they shouldn’t believe so much in money and the power of money. They think money can buy anything. All over, people are not hardworking, they don’t want to work, but they want to have money. People leave the university without  jobs and even the quality of our education has already been devalued. So, we really need a turning round, rebranding on all sides.

It’s a very gloomy picture I’ve painted but that is the truth. People don’t want to work but they want to have money, it has already destroyed this country.

Our industries have folded up, unemployment is really staring us in the face and we have the money. Look at what is happening in the National Assembly. N140,000 for meals a day and now, they have increased their personal allowances. When you begin to give huge amount of money to legislators to go and do constituency projects, of course, your guess is as good as mine, nothing will happen.

Between May 29 and June 12, which would you say should be regarded as democracy day?

I think June 12 should be because it was a landmark, a watershed. Unfortunately, it was killed, it was the best election ever because people lined up to  vote,  the election was done on the spot and it was transparently clear. But somehow, Babangida decided to cancel it and since that time, we have been in trouble; that’s why he’s finding it difficult to sell himself. June 12 is like an albatross hanging around his neck.

I don’t know how he will do it to be able to get out of it. Everybody is incensed, everybody is annoyed. What does he want, having been there for eight years, he’s not growing any younger. The young elements are itching for action, they are not happy. What is he looking for? A second term in Aso Rock? God will help us.

Recently, a former governor from the South West alleged that it was the Afenifere leaders that destabilised the Alliance for Democracy. How true is this and what exactly led to the crisis between the AD governors and Afenifere leaders?

What happened was that after Afenifere paved the way for them (AD governors) to win the elections, they forgot it was Afenifere that sold them to the people. The people of the South West embraced them. The South West was captured by the AD governors using Afenifere as a platform.

As soon as they got to office, they (AD governors) kicked Afenifere out by not listening to the party because they had already gotten hold of power; they were exposed to money and then, they decided to go their own way.

They didn’t respect the party again, but the party is supreme anywhere in the world; any member of the party will subject his ego to the supremacy of the party. But in their own case, they bluffed the party and they didn’t listen to what the party was saying. It was only Adefarati who listened. Be that is as it may, I think he’s now trying to paint a picture which is not true.

It’s becoming somewhat difficult for Afenifere and ARG to fuse together…

(Cuts in) We’re not together. The younger elements pulled out and they have not really accused us of any crime. I think they’re very much in a hurry to take over power. If they tarry a little, they will graduate into our position, I’m not going to stand any election anymore. They were just in a hurry, that is why they disrupted the system.

Are there plans to reconcile with them?

We’ve tried our best. We set up the Kayode Eso committee to reconcile but the ARG people feel it’s time to take over from these old men and that’s why there is this dichotomy. They have not told us what our crimes are, they cannot accuse us of anything, our heads were clear, we knew what we were doing, but they are much in a hurry.

Do you see the hand of a fifth columnist in the whole episode?

Well, if it is there, they know us well and we have stuck to our guns, we have not deviated from our tents, from our ideology and from what we believe. In fact, we have even asked questions what our offence was, but they have not been able to tell us.

But recently, we learnt that the wife of late Chief Obafemi Awolowo intervened, but it was gathered that another Yoruba group has been formed. What do you make of this?

We started by saying Chief Mrs Awolowo should intervene, infact, it was one of us who approached her and asked her to intervene in the disagreement and she promised to try. But we discovered that along the line rather than reconcile the warring groups, a new body was being formed. She was not even talking of reconciling the former governors and Afenifere, we just discovered that a new body had emerged.

And so we felt that was not our mission because there were some fundamental issues we wanted to iron out; but unfortunately, the conservatives have taken over and we don’t feel comfortable with that. We shall continue to reach out to the progressives and we hope that with persistent efforts, we shall win.

In 1999, it was Afenifere and the Alliance for Democracy that formed an alliance, with 2011 fast approaching, is Afenifere forming an alliance with other progressives to field candidates?

The ideology of Afenifere is that Afenifere is a socio-political group and usually, it uses a political party to actualise its dreams. I believe Afenifere will rise again, we’re talking to the progressives and hope our efforts will be crowned with success before long.

Still on 2011, as a progressive, what do you think will guarantee free and fair elections?

That is why we have been crying that Jonathan should try and implement what Uwais recommended. The recommendation has even gone further by saying that individuals can stand elections, if he can convince the electorate but the emphasis will be on free and fair elections.

At the same time, the president should not appoint the INEC chairman, so that the influence will not be there. Unless the INEC is independent, it will be difficult for whoever is there to conduct a free and fair election.

As leader of Afenifere, would you say President Jonathan should contest election in 2011?

He should contest, there is nothing wrong in that. The point is that we cannot zone position, particularly in a country like this. We should be looking for the best candidate, who will be able to deliver. Once you zone, you limit the field of choice. That is the stand of Afenifere.

You can rotate quite alright, let the best candidate emerge. In America, they always get the best candidate and if the man at the helm of affairs is fumbling, they have a way of easing him out in the next opportunity.  So, if we want to progress and if we want to rank ourselves among the leading countries all over the world, we should give everybody a chance.

And of course, people will know, they will use their senses, but it’s not good to concentrate candidates in one zone and we are very many. There are competent people all over the country. But when you limit it to a region, we are trying to enthrone mediocrity. That is the reason we support a candidate from anywhere.

But there is this belief that if Jonathan is contesting, the elections may not be free and fair.

How do you mean? Because of the power of incumbency?

Yes.

Not necessarily. If INEC does its work very well, then, there will be no problem. Rigging, corruption and so on will be eliminated and the best candidate will emerge.

Late President Umaru Yar’Adua hammered so much on his Seven Point Agenda but ended up achieving little. What do you think should be the specific focus of Jonathan?

He should examine the seven point agenda thoroughly. There is nothing strange in what the former president said about the Seven Point Agenda. He was talking about energy, food, education, these are things we have been saying before. All we need do is have a focus and do the things thoroughly.

The Seven Point Agenda is neither here nor there. There is so much noise about the actualisation of the ideas in the programme; it is left for competent people to activate them.

I’m not sure that President Goodluck Jonathan has seen his way clear about the Seven Point Agenda. The thing should be revised, there is nothing new about it. In our mind and psyche, we are not really sincere.  We know our problems, but we don’t know how to tackle it.

I think the agenda of the present administration should   be streamlined and areas of focus should be energy, health  education and employment. These are specific areas and if they are tackled properly, we will move this country forward. If we have electricity round the clock, then things will bubble, small scale industries will spring up. That alone will guarantee the future of this country, that is the key thing and of course, our orientation must change.

Would you say the ideals  our founding fathers fought for are still in place?

They have been bastardized and we are disappointed. The standard has really fallen from all sides because of the love for money and because people don’t care . So, the result is that, nobody really cares about standard. So, I think the leaders have a role to play.

There is no doubt corruption has been the bane of this country giving us a bad image at home and abroad; how best do you think we can combat corruption?

I think our leaders will have to think again, they need to lead by example and not acquire wealth at the expense of the people. There have been several revelation, Haliburton, Siemens and even at home here; the rate of corruption is alarming. Even when those found guilty are charged to court, the cases are manipulated. How many of them have been jailed, even when we discover that they have stolen so much money. So, we are paying lip service to the fight against corruption.

From what you’ve just said, how can we get it right as a nation?

We must have a change of heart. We must stress less importance on acquisition of wealth. If they know that after some time they won’t be able to spend what they are have acquired and they won’t be able to enjoy it, our country will be better. The advanced countries are better because they acquire a lot in order to give out, they have charities and that’s why they have so many foundations.