*Says section 143 is the only option before National Assembly
*Manner of president’s absence is cause of confusion
*Declares: ‘Nigerians are watching’

Olorunimbe Mamora is a two-time senator. Before going to the Senate, he was Speaker of the Lagos State House of Assembly where his four-year tenure was marked by exceptional leadership. Therefore, when Senator Mamora says “the option or the avenue that is open to the National Assembly is the exploration of Section 143 would be the only available option or solution in the circumstance.  Whether exploring Section 143 would play out or not is another issue but I’m saying that within the circumstance, that option, within my own knowledge of the constitution; that is the only option before us,” he is talking with the benefit of legislative experience. He declares that the manner in which President Umaru Yar’Adua left the country is a breach of the constitution and, could, in the estimation of right thinking members of the National Assembly constitute an act of grave misconduct. Excerpts:

By Jide Ajani , Deputy Editor

OUR president has been  away from the country  for  the past    49 days and this has created a lot of tension in the country.  Now, how would you want to describe the essence of his absence?
Well I think the first thing to say is that the manner of Mr. President’s absence in the country has not gone down well with virtually every segment of this country. Yes, we are not saying that anybody prays to be ill. Yes Mr. President is ill, that is what we’ve been told.

Personally, I wish him speedy recovery. But then, mark my words, it’s the manner of leaving the country without compliance, with the provisions of the Constitution that is the problem. As it is not, it would appear the country is drifting because it is difficult to really say that this is the person in charge, so, that has its cost in terms of decision making; in terms of getting things done properly; in terms of attending to state matters, particularly those ones that require urgency, and of course in terms of running the country as a whole.

There are a whole lot of issues, economy, security, the amnesty issue – follow up on it just name it. It’s quite unfortunate, the way things are going, it’s like we are in a state of rudderlessness in the country and we seem to be making a mockery of the entire democratic process, governance and even the whole concept of rule-of-law may seem not to be in place

Which approach do you think the National Assembly can adopt to take Nigeria out of this state of rudderlessness?
I have always said that our problem at the end of the day in this country is not about lack or absence of law but the problem often times has always been the capacity to flout the laws of the land. The capacity not to respect the provisions of the constitution is a greater threat than the laws available. If you look at the constitution, it is clear on what should be done.

First, Section 145 talks of a situation where the president is going on vacation for any reason. The constitution says he should transmit to the National Assembly and once he does that the vice president automatically takes over and if that had been done, there would have been no basis for all we’re saying now. That is why I say it is the non-compliance that has brought about all this.

Now, Section 144 talks about permanent incapacity of the holder of the office, in this case the president or the vice president, and the section expects that the Federal Executive Council, FEC, would act in a responsible manner. That is what the constitution expects from the FEC and mind you it says permanent incapacity as opposed to temporary. But again, at what point does a supposed temporary incapacity become permanent incapacity. Again, I believe that the expectation of the drafters or the framers of the constitution is that every holder of office, of whatever capacity, would act with a minimum iota of responsibility.

In a situation where Mr. President has been absent without notice for over 48 days now – and still counting – what would the National Assembly do?

Well, this is like a handshake going beyond the elbow. Would it not be proper for the FEC to act in a manner dictated by the constitution? That’s the other angle to it. Now, in the absence of compliance with Section 145 and Section 144 – mind you under Section 144, the legislature is involved but its involvement is contingent on an initiated move by the FEC, expected to meet and decide with two third votes that the holder of that office is not functioning.

Senator Olorunimbe Mamora

What we’re now left with is Section 143 and that is where the full involvement of the National Assembly begins. To now examine the action of Mr. President, with a view to determining whether or not a breach of the constitution has been committed amounting to gross misconduct and that is now a matter for members of the National Assembly, sitting down to examine the whole problem and determining whether the breach of the constitution by Mr. President in not transmitting a letter to the leadership of the National Assembly, has constituted an act of gross misconduct and that is what we’re left with in the circumstance and that is the lee way the National Assembly can explore in the present circumstance.

Some of your colleagues have told me that so as not to bring to the fore again this North/ South divide, that rather than reach for Section 143, they are talking of the possibility of exploring an amendment of the Constitution  within 72 hours, with, of course, the involvement of the state governors, to create another section which states that in the event that there is no transmission of letter from the president to the National Assembly, then the vice president can take over?  First can the constitution be amended within 72 hours?
(Laughs) Anything is possible. Where there is a will, there is a way. But then, as far as I am concerned, I will not be a party to that because that will be in tandem with what I will call the Nigerian approach of fire brigade and that is typically Nigerian. You do not rush an amendment just like that because a situation has arisen and the constitution has already provided a remedy. I do not buy that idea. The question is:  Is it possible? Yes it is possible. But to the extent that it would be a typically Nigerian approach, I do not think it is proper because rather than looking at issues dispassionately, we would not do that, we wait and adopt a fire brigade approach.  That to me would not be a solution.

This extreme view, in the light of the North/South divide, do you see this extreme view of exploring Section 143 sailing through as a solution in the circumstance?

Well, what I said is that the option or the avenue that is open to the National Assembly, an elected body of representatives of the people, interested in moving this country forward, that exploration of Section 143 would be the only available option or solution in the circumstance.

Full testing

Again, whether it would play out or not is another issue but I’m saying that within the circumstance, that option, within my own knowledge of the constitution; that is the only option before us.  Don’t forget that people have hammered the National Assembly seriously.

Let’s look at all the options: some people say the constitution has not been tested enough?
There is no provision of the Constitution that is fully tested until it is before the court. The full testing would be until it is brought before the court to adjudicate on. That is the full testing.

Some people are also saying that yes, this man is ill, he did not do what he was supposed to have done, why not amend the constitution to accommodate a situation where a president just falls into a state of coma in the Villa before transmitting the letter. The FEC refuses to initiate the move to declare permanent incapacitation for political reasons, can’t there be an amendment to take care of that?  Or would the National Assembly impeach a man in coma and consider his state an act of gross misconduct and, therefore, subject him to an impeachment exercise?
(Cuts in) See, when we make a law and pass it to Mr. President and he refuses to sign within 30 days, the bill is brought back to the National Assembly and it goes through the process again and once it passes, it becomes law because the refusal of Mr. President to sign it into law amounts to a veto.

Senator Mamora

Hold on let me finish sir. My point is that an amendment which says, for instance, that in the event that the President breaches Section 145 and for whatever reasons refuses or is incapable of transmitting that letter to the National Assembly, that the vice president can be deemed to become in charge after say, 10 days or 15 days or 20 days, so that a president who thinks he’s being smart by not writing the letter has that provision to contend with?  At least compared to outright impeachment, wouldn’t this type of amendment be a better way out?
Well, we’re still exploring, it’s a possibility. What we’re doing now is to explore the possibilities. Of course, that is a possibility. The process of constitution amendment is not easy and I’m saying that we should avoid fire brigade approach. The constitution has given us enough room to maneouvre. The framers of the constitution have always expected that the operators would act responsibly and as I’ve said earlier that we have the capacity to do things that were never in the contemplation of the framers of the constitution. Our capacity not to do the right thing is very high.

But with what you’ve said now, it’s a possibility and it appears creative and really ingenious at least within the circumstance, to preclude or to forestall this type of situation happening in future.
As I said, where there is a will, there is a way. Of course this is something that requires the entire National Assembly and the state assemblies if it must be done and carried through.

The only visible opposition political party in Nigeria today is the Action Congress, AC.  Now, when you resume on Tuesday, what would the AC caucus in the National Assembly do about the situation?
Well, I don’t want to preempt myself or my colleagues who are members of the AC caucus in the National Assembly. Once we resume, I will convene a meeting of the AC caucus in the National Assembly, because this issue has now become a national one.

And international embarrassment too, because some reports are already linking the absence of President Yar’Adua to the Farouk Muttalab terror attempt?
(Cuts in) Yes, you’re right; it has become an international embarrassment too because, mind you, I mentioned earlier that there are implications. One of the implications of this situation is security – so many things, the economy, security and all that – because decisive action needs to be taken at some point, that is the truth of the matter. Somebody must be in charge. Whatever the spin doctors in the presidential villa are saying is their problem but they’ve forgotten that as the head and on whose table the buck stops, it is important for you to be there to take stock of inputs into issues and debates before a decision is taken.

It’s not just enough for decisions to be taken and then you hand it over to somebody to execute, you must be part of that decision making to appreciate all the arguments that have gone in.

Senator Olorunimbe Mamora

Without prejudice to your views on the floor of the senate, the impression out there is that this senate has become more of a “Paddy-Paddy” arrangement than a legislative chamber, that people are just there and this impression seems to gain more ground by the day?

Well, if people have that type of feeling, one can not blame them because while perception is not reality, perception is everything and if people perceive the Senate like that, then that is it. But I would say that people forget the fact that the Senate in any country is a moderating influence because of the maturity that is expected to be displayed at that level because when you look at the mean age of the senators and you compare to the mean age of those in the House of Representatives, you will find that the Senate’s is higher.

When you look at the totality of the experience and the exposure of those in the Senate, you’ll find that the Senate’s is higher and again the issue of representation is another point, it is on the basis of equality of state so when you bring all these factors together, you’ll understand why the Senate is not all that turbulent or why it is tempered and that is how it is supposed to be and that is not to say that we do not have our disagreements with the executive arm, we do.

It’s just the manner you go about expressing that disagreements and even in the Bible it was Apostle Paul who said when I was a child I acted like a child and now that I am older, I changed my ways, something like that. But that is not to say that there are no expectations. There are expectations of the people that we must meet and these expectations require us meeting some minimum levels and because of this, inspite of our moderating approach, are we satisfying the yearnings of the people who have given us the mandate – to act in the best interest of the people.

You were once the speaker of the Lagos State House of Assembly. These days, the state governors have the assemblies in their pockets?
Again perception may not be reality but perception is what people hold onto. I think, yes, when people hold that view, it would be difficult to fault them – although it may not be the same in all the states of the federation,  it seems to me that in most of the state houses of assembly, the state governors call the shots. They act like lord of the manor; and they behave as if the entire state is in their pocket, as if the state is just their personal estate to run. That is my view of what is going on in most of the houses of assembly. I can say without any equivocation that it wasn’t like that during my own time as speaker in Lagos State and I still want to believe that it is not like that in the present house in Lagos State. The Lagos State House of Assembly has been vibrant and it has been alive to its responsibilities and it has always acted responsibly and responded to the yearnings of the people of the state.

Antecedents and pedigree
I am only using the Lagos State House of Assembly as an example, judging from what is going on there at the moment. But I do know that in most state houses of assembly it is about the legislature being subservient, it is about the legislature being in the pocket of state governors and it is about the members of the house not being equal and being a coordinate arm of government.

So, what do you think is responsible for this?
It is because of the over-bearing attitude of the state governors who virtually determine and virtually handpick those who go into the state house of assembly and use the members as pawns because often times, you have not had situations where the membership is based on merit, is based on pedigree, is based on accomplishments, is based on antecedents but on the whims and caprices of one godfather somewhere. This is not good for good governance because a situation where the legislature can not carry out its assignment except it goes cap in hand to the governor; this is not good for our democracy. In fact, that is why in the constitution amendment that we’re trying to see through, we want allocations to the legislature to be a first line charge.

Now that you’ve mentioned godfathers I want us to look at the Lagos State House of Assembly which is seen as owing its allegiance to the former governor of Lagos State, Bola Tinubu.  When you look at the emergence of even the incumbent state governor, Babatunde Raji Fashola, without prejudice to all his exploits, as well as members of the state house of assembly, Tinubu virtually handpicked them all.  Is it now a matter of the end justifying the means then anything goes?
So long as the main thing or focus is development and good governance, that is what people benefit from and not the politicking. So long as there is good governance.Yes, if you like you can call it the Lagos family of the Action Congress, where you have the political patriarch in Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, who again, laid the foundation of the present administration.

Yes, the present administration, the present successes recorded and we should not forget that the present government is an offshoot of Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu and one of the greatest achievements if not the greatest achievement of Bola Tinubu is that of successful transition because there is no leadership that is complete without transition. The mere fact that he has been able to put a progressive succession in place, that is now taking his own vision further and higher, I think he deserves commendation. In any case, it is about a family.

The house of assembly too is a part and parcel of that family. The Lagos State House of Assembly is also contributing its quota to that big family because people are in the habit of attributing every success to the executive alone but it is not just so. Whatever the vision or dream that a governor has for a state, it can not be achieved on its own because you would need legislative framework to back up and give effect to the dreams and visions. The legislature and the executive must work together to achieve the dream and vision for the people and that is why I say the relationship between the arms of government should be built on the three Cs – cooperation, collaboration and co-ordination. These should be carried through under an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding. This has always been my approach and when I was speaker, this was how the relationship between the house then and the executive blossomed.

Could the same be said of your relationship at the national level, between the National Assembly and the Executive?
Definitely it’s not the same because if the type of thing we put in place in Lagos was the same at the national level, it’s not the same. You can not compare.

So, how does that make you feel?
It makes one feel terrible what is going on. The consolation is that I am not part of the ruling party, the PDP, which has put the country in this type of terrible situation that we find ourselves today.

The constitution amendment is seen more as a waste of time than the real thing and people even say there are no real parties to drive the issues and manifestoes, that even a piecemeal approach would have been better than this jamboree and dramatization that we’re witnessing today?

(Cuts in)  No, let me tell you what we’re doing now is different. Let me assure you that this time around we’re not and the chairman of the National Assembly constitution review committee has always said it that what we’re doing now is a piecemeal thing and not a wholesale affair because if we’re not able to take it through between 1999 and 2003 and we were not able to take it through between 2003 and 2007, we should be able to do something now so we can not afford to fail this time. Are we jinxed or is the process jinxed?

Electoral reforms

This time around it’s an incremental thing and that’s why you see us mentioning certain things that we believe would take us to a better pedestal, the electoral reforms for instance is an issue that is dear to our hearts.Yes, we’ve been holding public hearings where people come to say their minds and raise issues; remember that the National Assembly would still initiate the thing and then send to our colleagues at the state level.  We have not arrogated to ourselves alone what we’re trying to do; we’ve been working together at the national level and collaboration too with our colleagues at the state level.

Some people have a problem with this so called mega party.  Some people have a major concern and it has to do with the personalities who are driving it?
Those concerns may be right and apt. This is something that some people have also expressed from certain quarters but I believe that where there is a will there is always a way and it is not just about the principal actors in that movement but everybody involved in the project, including myself. You see, the challenge before all of us is to rescue Nigeria from the strangle-hold of the ruling party that has not managed this country the way it should be managed.

We need to rescue Nigeria from the PDP so that good governance can be established and then people can benefit from the wealth of this country.  So, if all of us, particularly the principal actors manage their ambitions well and put the country first, then we would succeed and from what I have seen, there is a conscious effort to do that

As a medical doctor, what drove you into politics?
It’s the need to be part of the process; I felt, somewhere along the line that there was need for one to be part of the change process in this country. I’ve not fully abandoned my practice; my clinic is still running here in Lagos; it’s just my own attempt to be part of the change that this country deserves that made me suspend, as it were, my medical practice.