*How we saved Chuba Okadigbo from early impeachment
*How Ghali Na’Abba and I piloted the House of Reps
*I was offered bribe to destabilise the House
*Some members in the House of 1999 suffered persecution from executive
*The pains you suffer as a public office holder

Between 2001 and January 2003, the House of Representatives held the nation spell bound. This was the handiwork of the duo of then speaker, Ghali Umar Na’Abba, and his vice, deputy speaker, Chibudom Nwuche. They were dubbed Tiger. In this interview, Nwuche, who served as a very loyal deputy to Na’Abba, explains the intrigues of that era: “There was coincidence and a confluence of aspiration and vision; Ghali was a nationalist and I am. So it was easy for us to say the same things at different fora without rehearsing a script. Secondly, I am a man who, when I give my word, you can take it to the bank. I was offered so much, materially and otherwise to work against Ghali but I refused and I won’t mention how much. I never accepted because I believe that if you’re working with a person you must defend that person. I think it was by the grace of God that I was so committed and those who saw me as difficult could not understand why I would be so committed to the then speaker even in spite of all that was offered to me to destabilize the House.” For a man who seldom talks, he made some revelations about what transpired while he was deputy speaker. Excerpts:

By Jide Ajani, Deputy Editor,

SIX years after:  What has been happening to Chibudom Nwuche?
I’ve been in Nigeria and I’ve been pursuing my other calling.  I’m by training and qualification a barrister at law and I had my first degree in politics and philosophy with subsidiary subjects in astronomy and history.  I practiced law for a while; worked for some firms before I now went into the oil and gas sector where I worked for some eight years before I went into the national assembly.

I ventured into telecoms infrastructure lately, though it has not been as rosy as I thought but that is a function of the human factor – what drives companies and businesses are people but I must confess that the crop of Nigerians we have these days are not as honest as those who were here before us and that makes doing business more difficult.  People are looking at short term benefits and it’s just like the country where people always blame politicians for everything but you find that the problems are noticeable in every segment – banks, private sector, public sector.

Oil and Gas and all that – as consultant legal services or what?
I was actually active in running the businesses I mentioned and I ran them for nine years. I hired vessels and took positions on trade for PMS and I had companies which had expatriates working for me.  I did jobs for Shell, Mobil and so on.

Prince Chibudom Nwuche

Was the calling fortuitous or family background?
Well, in some instances, fortuitous but my father was a major player in terms of petroleum products trading and marketing and I learned the initial ropes from him but the engineering part was fortuitous because some time in 1996, I had to move out of Lagos to Port Harcourt,  which was a bit more stable. So I went to Port Harcourt, nearer home, and discovered that the downstream business was not as vibrant as it was in Lagos so I moved into the midstream sector and began to work as a contractor for Shell, then Total (it was Elf then) and also Agip and Mobil.  In 1999, while working in Port Harcourt, and being nearer home, I began to motivate community groups and in 1999 I was asked to run for parliament even though it wasn’t in my own calculations.

I was hoping you would not use the phrase ‘I was called to come and serve’. We’ve heard that over and over.  Every politician claims to have been called upon to serve; can’t politicians think of new phrases to use?
I was actually asked to run and I mean it. Because most of those who have gone into public office have gone there to help themselves, Nigerians have become so cynical about public office holders that they do not expect anything so good from them. In my own case, my background is there for people to verify. I didn’t come into politics for want. Growing up, I was privileged; I attended the best schools.  When I ran for the National Assembly elections, I funded my campaigns, well, but for a few friends who chipped in something out of commitment.

Why go into politics when there is this tar of negativity?
The appreciation of that tar was afterwards.  I never appreciated the level of public scorn politicians and public office holders faced until later when I was in government and the fact that there had been many failed promises from politicians and many people in politics were tarred with the same negativity; seen as people who were not honest and who didn’t mean well for the country.  But one thing we have to keep in mind is that if we say because of that tar we all run away from politics, the country will die.

Countries are only able to make maximum progress when they have competent people who want to serve and who do go in there to serve.  If you do not empathize with people, you have no business being in politics or governance.  When I see governors and ministers who, upon getting into office begin to change their lines, hide their numbers, it baffles me.

What I’ve discovered is that if you do not have a liking for people, then you have no business claiming to want to serve at the level of a minister, governor, national assembly member, or whatever.  Why must you begin to hide from the people you claimed voted for you?  Why, if indeed they voted for you? You must have that calling, otherwise, don’t venture. I can not see people suffer and not help them.  If I see people suffering and I do not help or do something, it is because I am incapable of doing something to help, not that the heart to render the help is not there.

When you talk about the country already failing because the best hands do not come forward, you would agree that the challenge most people of ideas have is that there is a disconnect between them and the people they want to serve so much that the latter do not even feel comfortable relating with the former?  So how should those who can deliver, but whose world view is not in synch with that of the masses engage the process?
For me, going back home was not just to help – I’d always done that from Lagos.  My family had has this history of rulership of my area, from my grandfather to my father – my father is the king of my area, so we’ve always been with the masses. No matter how high we have climbed, we have always known and lived with the sufferings of the people in my area because they have constant access to us and we have always kept in touch. Some people who play politics out of Lagos or Abuja must make efforts to get back home and touch base because ultimately politics is a grass roots affair, ultimately.

Number one, no matter the office you’re aspiring to, you must keep constant touch with the masses.
Number two, you must also network because nobody has all the skill set for delivering or translating a vision into practical gains for the masses or to winning power so there must be a synergy between people who have a following at the grassroots level and those who have the vision and the ideas to govern.

Prince Nwuche

It would not work if those who have the capacity of delivering the vision do not synergize with the people who have the popular touch that would catapult you from being a mere contestant to becoming a winner, which means they must find relevant platforms.  If you’re a good candidate and you do not have a good platform, you won’t get it right.  It’s about those who want to serve but do not have the grassroots touch to win, or to be part of a national platform and try to work with that platform.

But will the owners of that platform welcome people of ideas?
You’re right.  That in itself poses its own challenges. I also understand that the challenges are enormous because politics in Nigeria is one of exclusion.  People who are inside don’t want others to come in no matter what they have to offer.  But the tragedy of that is that the country is suffering.  They may mean well but those who are already entrenched in the structures may not give them the lee way to come in because they are afraid of being supplanted and that is why Africa is held down.  Elsewhere, people encourage their best to emerge.

Look at Obama, if he was here he would not emerge; they would say he’s a neophyte, they would say he’s too young, they would say he’s a dreamer.  Nigeria has many Obama’s but the truth is that the erstwhile leadership of the world by America is deserved because a country that can allow an African migrant to seek to become its president has the moral right to lead the world.

You earlier said the business and political environment today appears more challenging because trust has broken down?
Do you know that in the era of our fathers people did business with just a handshake, without any agreement.  In fact in some cases for the people of the old school, if you want to sign agreement with them to do business, they would not agree because it meant you had something else in mind.  But today, we sign all sorts of agreement to do business, agreements to back up other agreements and you wonder why?  It is because people just want to line their pockets at the expense of the public. But as a leader, you look for creative ways of handling such issues without disrupting the system.

When you discover people who just want to line their pockets, you find creative ways of dealing with the issues.  For instance, I try to mentor people and make them understand that it is not all about making money, money that does not come clearly is not blessed.  But you mentor so much yet you still find people who remain greedy. Increasingly you find that Nigerians have become less patient; they’ve refused to defer rewards and people want immediate gains – although this may be a function or consequence of the state of instability we’ve found ourselves.

Opprobrium from members of the public to politicians was such that you never knew the extent until you got into government.  How do you mean?

I’ll give you an example. People assume that all politicians are corrupt and I will use the example of parliamentarians – people assume that they collect money from ministers and that when they go to do their oversight duties money must be paid first.  But you see, that is not correct, though it may happen in some instances but you would not be fair to generalize. In my own case, I put it as a challenge to anybody, any minister or agency head to come out and say I, Chibudom Nwuche, requested or got money to do my job or pass any law between 1999 and 2003, I ask any minister to come forward.  I’m not saying I’m an angel, but when I was in government, I tried to lead honestly. While I was deputy speaker, a newspaper published that I bought a house in Asokoro, I sued the newspaper and when they tried to investigate after the fact, they discovered that the house did not belong to me, that it was a guest house, provided by the FCDA. They were forced to retract.

That must be the house where you bought and installed a bullet proof door?
Yes, but it wasn’t I who bought the bullet proof door, it was the FCDA.I’m not saying I’m an angel but I served in government honestly and there are some Nigerians like me who have also served honestly. So it would not be fair to paint everybody the same way.

But what is it in government which makes people turn 180 degrees; they abandon friends, change their life style….?
(Cuts in) Look I’ll tell you: atimes there is legitimate pressure of the office and our economy is not deepened enough and so when people see a friend or a cousin in government, people bombard him with requests for this and that but people must find ways to respond to those pressures.

Would you believe that even some aides to these people demand for bribes before they can pass calls unto their bosses, some even switch off the phones; there are those who would simply request motivation before they pass the calls so you find that atimes without honest and competent aides there is a big problem.  Once you give your telephone to a man to handle for you, the man controls your destiny as it were. He’ll tell you those who called and even go ahead to manufacture those who have called you so that in turn you can call them back because he has struck his own deal with them – these are things that appear strange but they happen.

Chibudom Nwuche

The other factor is that people tend to overate public office. So once they get in there they see government as the ultimate forgetting that these things come and go.  That is why it is important for us to realize that people who want to serve should have served with distinction in some form before going into government, so that they would not see the office as a means of acquiring wealth or becoming comfortable.

You met Ghali Na’Abba, the then Speaker, in the House, but you were able to strike a partnership that worked well for the House.  How did that come about?
There was coincidence and a confluence of aspiration and vision; Ghali was a nationalist and I am so it was easy for us to say the same things at different fora without rehearsing a script. Secondly, I am a man who, when I give my word, you can take it to the bank.  I was offered so much, materially and otherwise to work against Ghali but I refused and I won’t mention how much.

We learnt what you were offered ran into billions?
(Cuts in) Laughter!  I never accepted because I believe that if you’re working with a person you must defend that person.  I think it was by the grace of God that I was so committed and those who saw me as difficult could not understand why I would be so committed to the then speaker even inspite of all that was offered to me to destabilize the House.

The tension was so palpable  then: Could you please give  one or two instances of the intrigues or the inside stories?
The Na’Abba-Must-Go episodes were many and the plots were coming from the presidency and there were also plots to remove me, too, but the members stood by us. Then there was the attempt to remove Chuba Okadigbo. There was also the case of Evans Enwerem – the last brought out so many things because we felt Enwerem, being an imposition of the presidency would not represent our interests well.  Chuba Okadigbo, we felt, was a good individual with the necessary carriage to lead the national assembly and so we fought to ensure that he was not removed by the executive.

But you people did not succeed because he was eventually removed by his colleagues.  What led to the failure to sustain that heat?
You know there was once when the Speaker travelled to India and there was this plot to remove Chuba.  I had travelled to Imo State to meet the governor for a function and while I was there at the government house, I had this premonition that something was about to happen to Chuba.  I became restless and had to insist on leaving Owerri immediately.  We came by road to Abuja and on getting into the city that evening when I arrived, I went straight to Chuba’s house in Apo village.

When I got in, the first thing I discovered was that Chuba’s house was looking unusual: No security men at the gate. I just went in straight, entered the house and yet, nobody was there; I went to the kitchen where I saw the cook who told me that Chuba was upstairs. So, Chuba came down and told me that his deputy, Haruna Abubakar had deserted him and that they had made up their minds to remove him as Senate president. I told him to take heart.  I placed a call to Na’Abba who instructed that we should do all we could. So, that night, I called a meeting in my house with some other colleagues like Nze Duru, Mohammed Wakil, and a few others. We planned and the first step was to go and see Abubakar.  We found his house in Maitama.

You found his house in Maitama, how? Was it a secret abode or what?
(Laughter) Well, we didn’t know where the house was located. (Laughter) You sef. We got there and we saw many senators there with him and I think the plot was thick. So I excused him to one side of the house by the swimming pool. And I asked what was going on? He responded that senators were getting fed up with Chuba and wanted to remove him.

I told him that if I were him I would be careful and I made it clear to him that he should not be deceived that once Chuba was removed, they would also remove him too from office.  I also told him that we heard that he was being blackmailed by the Presidency with some foreign accounts which he had – I’m saying this for the first time. But I explained to him that his office provided protection for him against such blackmail.

I think when we left his resolve became a bit weakened that night. So we left. We went back to my house and planned the next move.  We agreed that we were going to visit the Senate chambers the following day and we informed Chuba of our decision. The following day – and you know we would normally have our sessions before their own – I presided and a motion was presented and passed by the House of Representatives to the effect that if the Senate president was removed from office on account of outside influence or inducement or interference, the House of Representatives would cease to work with the Senate.

After our session, I led my colleagues to the Senate chambers and Chuba admitted us and we read our resolution and you could feel the impact immediately on the floor of the Senate. That was how that first plot against Chuba Okadigbo failed.

But some people believe that if politicians devote half the time they devote to plotting and scheming to developmental issues and delivery of democracy dividends, things would have been much better?

Well em, scheming is part of the political process. Where they become too numerours and become a constant feature of political life, then they begin to distract from the main aim of governance. In our own time we managed to pass bills and we still did our work inspite of the distractions.  And if you recall, the House of Representatives was starved of funds by the executive but we still did our work.  It was a principled house and I must commend the members.

But you would agree with me that what was happening then was more a tyranny of the minority because it was then Speaker Na’Abba, you and a handful of others who held the House down?
I won’t agree with that.  Every member was important.  You would have to understand that in every institution of governance and even in human life, people voluntarily, for ease of decision making, people give out a part of their own sovereignty to others in trust and say they should lead them – that’s how it functions.  Every member was on board. Though we had opposition, the truth remained that those who were opposed to us could not prove that they were not being sponsored from outside and that they were induced with material gains.

The issue of inducement itself was never really proved by your people too.  For instance, the money displayed by the mace, where did it come from?  Whose money was it?  We heard it was just representative of the money alleged to have been given to each member to oppose your leadership?
You, what do you think?

I’m asking the questions here but I’ve already told you what we heard at that time, that the money was simply representative of what was alleged to have been given and that it wasn’t the real money as given?  We were not sure?
The money was from members who collected; members who took the money and who had the courage and the conviction of their conscience and they came forward to say that this is what we were given by the agents of the executive to remove the speaker and we put it on the table.

Where is the money now?
I think the money is still there.  If the law enforcement agencies can do a thorough job, they can trace where the money came from but that hasn’t been done yet, the money is there.

In the National Assembly?
Yes, the money is still there.

How much exactly was it?
I can’t remember now but the money is there.  The money was given back by Nigerians who were honorable and who up till today remain unsung as real heroes, members who returned a bribe given to them and that’s why I think we should find a way to honour good deeds, men like Jangaba and there were another members from Plateau State- Hon Josiah Gobum, Hon Bello Yero, Hon Balminas Yilkes who came from Jos, they suffered so much persecution on account of returning that bribe.  Many members suffered persecution because some returned the bribe money and as a result of the events of that era, some were punished by their governors, some denied ticket to return to the house.

Sincerely, at some point some people felt the House itself was being used by some people from outside?
First of all, you’ve known me for some years now, do I look like somebody to be used for something, especially if I’m not convinced about what I’m about to do?  I would never do it, no matter what.  I tell you sincerely speaking, most Nigerians – and that’s the beauty of the national assembly – have access to us and they come and see us and tell us things from their own point of understanding. Religious leaders, community leaders, political leaders, they come to you and tell you things, every hue of Nigerians came to the house and even the president himself constantly kept in touch with us, told us things from his own point of understanding too.  So, to that point, you could say people influenced us but not in the manner being suggested.

In the beginning, all seemed all was well then suddenly.  At what point did the House and the Presidency part ways?
I’ll like to look at actions and present them in the context of the natural evolution of events.  Our parliament was the first after many years of military governance and the same thing happened to the executive and the judiciary.  What you saw was an attempt to define the scope of influence of each arm of government because the principal scope was about the budget, whether the national assembly could add to or subtract from the budget, or whether the legislators could summon minister to explain some actions. That was what was happening and there was nothing personal in all of these.
The impeachment attempt on President Obasanjo came suddenly and died suddenly too.  It was inconclusive.  Though some would say the signal was sent clearly to the president that he could be checked. If you tell somebody the story, what would you be saying?
People should not forget that the president and most members of the National Assembly were in the same political party.  At some point the party was concerned and of course, Nigerians intervened as well.  That was what happened.

One of your members told me at the height of the crisis that ‘when you pull a gun, someone must die’.  That the House leadership having instituted that process, should have seen it through and that whatever became the consequence of the events of that era, as far as it concerned you and then Speaker Na’Abba, especially your inability to come back to the House remained part of those same events?

The one of Na’Abba may have been but the point is that it shows lack of magnanimity because if somebody had pulled a gun and on advice from leaders like Shehu Shagari, Yakubu Gowon, and has dropped the gun and forgotten, then the other people too should be man enough to put the issue behind them and I don’t agree with that because sometimes when you pull the gun and you discover that the man on whom you’ve pulled the gun was the wrong man, do you still go ahead and shoot him?

In my own case, it was from my state because some people wanted to play god but one thing is that when men prevail, it is just because God Almighty has His own plans.  And whatever they thought they had done, it has only held the country down.  They haven’t allowed the people who have the passion to move the country forward to excel. Add to that the fact that our party was very weak. Rather than weigh the balance of the whole thing and institute a set of criteria on which to base the return of members either to the Senate or the House of Representatives, instead of the wholesale thing that was done, just stopping members from coming back to the House.

Let’s look at the controversy over the health of the president and the lack of due process?
Firstly, let me wish the president speedy recovery.  I know him very well and he means well for this country whatever anybody would like to say. From what we’ve read there appears to be two views: One is that there is nothing wrong and that all is well.  The other view is that there should be proper handover in the event of a vacation. Now, on the issue of his absence, the pressure would not have been there if just before his departure, he had written to the Senate president and the Speaker and, therefore, allowing his vice to act.  That would have minimized the pressure on his return and he would have had enough time to take care of his health.  He is a human being and anybody can fall sick.
Some have even go far to say he should resign?

No, I will not subscribe to that; that is alarming and not fair. Many people have died since the time the President left the country. Anybody can fall sick or die. That call is not necessary.  People should not play God; he has a right. The issue and the pressure is that there was no proper handover.

How would you describe Olusegun Obasanjo either in the light of the power struggle between your House and the executive or in terms of how he ruled Nigeria, or his interference in the PDP?
Well, I’ll speak my mind and I won’t say what people would want to hear. I interacted a lot with Obasanjo and in my interaction, I found him to be extremely dynamic, purposeful and clear-headed. On a personal level, what transpired between the House and the executive was not a personal thing it was based on issues. Obasanjo was approachable.  My travails were not from Obasanjo, it was from my state.  My personal experience is that he’s done his best for the country – although some may say he did not do well, that is with benefit of hindsight.  And in any case, the presidency was never a one man show, people worked with him so it should be a collective.