By Clifford NDUJIHE
Prof Anya O. Anya, 73, is primarily a scientist but he is at ease with politics, governance, law, economics and administration among others.

The pioneer chairman of the Nigerian Economic Summit Group and a key player in the Vision 2010 and Vision 20-2020 roadmaps, was literarily shooting from his heaps in an interview with Saturday Vanguard last Saturday in his Lekki, Lagos home.

In no holds barred fashion, he gave reasons President Goodluck Jonathan should be allowed to continue as president. He also spoke on how to tackle graft, ensure credible polls in 2011, why older presidential aspirants should step aside and why the Igbo should oppose zoning among others. Excerpts:

At 73, you look so healthy and could be taken to be 60. What is the secret?

The secret is God; His grace. None of us can really say what he wants to do or what he doesn’t want to do. As He told us in the Bible, He knew us before we were born. So, there is a plan to each life. Our duty is to try and fulfil it, the rest is left to Him.

How do you see the issues surrounding preparations for the 2011 polls, especially the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC’s N87.7 billion budget for voters’ registration?

When you look at it, most people will agree that it is a heavy bill, perhaps, a bit on the high side. But where we are, to get credible elections, no price is too high. Given the credibility and integrity of the man, who is in-charge (Prof. Attahiru Jega), whatever he says, give it to him so that he will not have excuses.

Let’s take them on their words, give them what they want but let them deliver a credible and dependable election in which every voters’ vote will count.

Aside INEC, how can we handle the ever-ready-to-rig politicians?

You remember that Donald Duke, the former Governor of Cross River State, gave details, a blow-by-blow account of how rigging is planned and effected. If that is what it is, nobody should be taken by surprise because we know what to expect. The thing now is to checkmate it.

First of all, the politicians can checkmate each other. Second, we the voters can checkmate the politicians and people who want to do funny things, including the security agencies because in the past, security agencies had been part of the mishandling of elections. And if everybody is on his toes ready to play his part, then, at least, the principle of countervailing forces should act as deterrence and the outcome should be a credible election.

How do you see the INEC’s election timetable, especially the two weeks fixed for voters’ compilation?

Two weeks should not be enough but it is still better to have a voters’ register that more people trust than one that has a history of manipulation. I say it is not enough because if I am travelling out of the country on business, I still want to be able to register. If the window for registration is too narrow then some of the people who ought to register might not be able to register and you cannot have a free and fair election, the type we are talking, if any part of the electorate is disenfranchised for whatever reason.

So, I think that the two weeks is too short. I would expect at least one month. Anything less than one month is a bit tight.

What do you make of the issue of zoning as regards the presidency?

To understand zoning, you have to understand how it began. Zoning is a pragmatic attempt to solve a Nigerian problem but unfortunately, it has not been clearly thought out. And to that extent, because of the shallowness of the thinking that comes with it, it has elements or certain aspects that are unacceptable.

First of all, as I have quoted elsewhere, zoning is un-Godly because God who created us gives us not only free will to effect our choices unencumbered but also, and more importantly, He allows us to choose in an atmosphere in which there is equal opportunity for everybody.

Zoning means that you have decided that ‘this one is excluded, that one is excluded; it can only be from this circle.’ To that extent, it is not free and so it is not Godly.

Second is the fact that zoning cannot allow merit to be the basis of choice because the best candidate may be from the excluded zone and you have excluded him for no reason – not his ability, not his rights but merely because it soothes some people to say ‘it is our turn.’ So, because you exclude merit, you also, in the process, encourage mediocrity.

Third, it is undemocratic and unconstitutional. The Nigerian Constitution has no place for zoning. The directive principles of governance in Nigeria make it clear that every Nigerian has a right to present himself for office and to be voted for. We understand the reasons people prefer zoning. It is easier to manipulate. A smaller circle can take a decision that is binding on the rest of the nation. You cannot build a nation that way.

Proponents of zoning argue that it would ensure power rotation even to the minorities. Without zoning, some fear that some groups, including your South-East geo-political zone might not be able to produce the president in the nearest future.

Rotation is unnecessary if there was a society in which there was fairness, justice, equity and freedom, which are embedded in our first National Anthem, in the current one and in our Coat of Arms.

Therefore, there is a mandatory responsibility in leadership to build a society directed by those values, in which case it does not really matter where the Nigerian leader comes from provided he is competent and has the right values – values that give encouragement to all citizens of the country no matter where they come from. Because there has been manipulation, the frustrated ones are saying ‘we must rotate it.’ Return justice to the system, rotation will be irrelevant.

What about some Igbo support for zoning and their clamour to produce the president in 2015?
Look closely at those who are supporting zoning, they are either people who have held office and are hopeful that they can hold another office at a higher level. They want the ground to be softened.

They don’t want to have to campaign throughout Nigeria to be accepted. They are not looking forward to becoming president of Igboland. They are president of Nigeria. So, they should be acceptable to the rest of Nigeria, which means they should present themselves and be ready to give what is in the best interest of Nigeria and of all sections.

If you look at those who are clamouring for zoning, there is that element of selfish consideration. There is nobody who is thinking about what is best for Igboland and Nigeria that will tell you that zoning will be his preferred option. The reason is simple. By the nature of the Igbo, Igboland is a democratic society, in which everybody has a right and the society encourages everybody to compete on equal level.

How can people, who believe in democratic principles now be thinking about a principle that excludes because that is what zoning is? History tells us that when you work for the best conditions to emerge with a level-playing field and proper acceptance of the right values for everybody, you will always find that the Igbo will thrive. The Igbo can compete under any circumstance if the ground is level.

Indeed, why the Igbo have tended to lose out in Nigeria is because of zoning. Because we have often excluded the best in Igboland from offices, Nigeria loses and Igboland loses. When you say you want the Igbo turn, first, you are giving the right to decide on your leadership to outsiders rather than yourself. Second, you select us out on the basis of your interest versus my interest and I will like to protect my own.

So, leadership in Igboland has been tended to be picking out the self-centred and selfish ones, do a deal with them, often against Igbo interest so that they become acceptable to Nigeria. When that happens, such people are often no longer Igbo leaders and they are not Nigerian leaders either.

Former Vice President, Dr. Alex Ekwueme said recently that he hoped the South-East would produce the president in his life time and former Biafran leader, Dim Chukwuemeka Odumegwu-Ojukwu, said allowing the Igbo to produce the president would show that the Igbo were no longer being punished for the civil war. How do you view their views?

Both are just slightly older than me. They are the leading edge of my generation. Their hope is also my hope but I think that at times we can be naive. Naive in the sense that we project our hopes outside the box of the reality on the ground.

The reality on the ground is that nobody donates power to anybody. When the Nigerian cabal decided that after Chief M.K.O. Abiola, all the parties must have a Yoruba candidate, why did they do that? The Yoruba had fought with the assistance of other Nigerians including me.
You fought for the Yoruba?

People forget that I was the chairman of the Strategy Planning Committee of the CUU (Committee for Unity and Understanding) that gave rise to the National Democratic Coalition, NADECO. God willing, one day I will write my memoirs and people will know where these things started and what happened as different from what some claimed.

The Chinese say that ‘success is an orphan, everybody claims him, failure is a bastard, nobody claims him.’ Because NADECO seemed to have become the symbol, all kinds of characters claim they played one active part or the other.

And because the process at one stage became regionalised and ethnic different from the way it started, it became possible for all kinds of people from the Western part of the country to jump up and say they are NADECO chieftains. The only two people, may be three, who can tell you what happened and the role I played are Chief Ayo Adebanjo, Ayo Opadokun and the late Chief Abraham Adesanya.

So, the point I am making is that because the South-West had fought a heroic battle,
everybody had no alternative than to say ‘accommodate them so that we can have peace.’ What I am telling my Igbo brothers is to make themselves so relevant to the Nigerian system that people will say, ‘look, at this point in time, the Igbo candidate is the best we have and it is in Nigeria’s interest to have him.’

Then, we will have a Nigerian president, who accidentally is an Igbo. That is the way it has to be and that is the way it will be.

In any case, the Igbo thrive in a competitive environment. Indeed, the Igbo are the only ones who you can claim they are the original Nigerians. There is no part of the country where after the people who say ‘this is my place’, you don’t have the Igbo as the second largest constituency. We are the ones who are found everywhere.

So, we have, by our efforts, shown that we are Nigerians. Therefore, we should not be begging for office but show through what you do that you are so relevant that Nigeria cannot ignore you.

I use Lagos State as an example. As we speak, the 2006 census that former Governor Bola Ahmed Tinubu conducted alongside the federal one suggest that less than 50% of the population of Lagos is Yoruba and not less than 40% of the population of Lagos is Igbo.

What does that mean? It means that properly organised, the Igbo can be the alternative government in Lagos. But I will not be the one, having worked with the leadership of the Yoruba and knowing that it is possible to work towards a common purpose with them, to say, ‘let Igbo organise.’

It is possible for us to arrange a fair system where all the constituent parts that have a stake in Lagos are part of the governance of Lagos. We can repeat that in Abuja, Kano and elsewhere and that way you will find that the clamour for Igbo being allowed here and there will go.

People will start returning to the original concept where every Nigerian was at home in any part
of the country. In the 50s, Umaru Altine, a Hausa/Fulani was the Mayor of Enugu. An Ajibade of the NCNC (National Council of Nigerian Citizens), was representing Port Harcourt at the Eastern House of Assembly in Enugu. And you know that Port Harcourt really is an Igbo City.

The original Igbo name for Port Harcourt is Ugwuocha before it was changed to Port Harcourt by the colonialists. That was the kind of Nigeria we had. That was the time that Mbonu Ojike was active and important in the politics of Lagos. And that was the time that Nigeria had a dream and future that was promising and encouraged my generation. We have to try and get back to that and we can only do that when you have a governance that enjoys acceptance by all Nigerians across the board. You can’t do it when you are clamouring for rotation, federal character, zoning and things like that.

This is the right time to go back because the younger generation of Nigerians are better educated than my generation, they have a broader view and among them, it is irrelevant where you come from. I have seen first class people from the North, East, West and South of the younger generation.

Let’s leave a system that allows them give leadership to this country and let my generation stop pretending that we are still relevant. We have had our time, we should encourage our successors to do better job than we have done. Those making the greatest noise are those frightened by what they might lose. But what they might lose is their relevance, which they lost a long time ago by their failure in performance in office.

In other words, are you asking older presidential aspirants like Gen. Ibrahim Babangida, Alhaji Atiku Abubakar and Gen. Muhammadu Buhari to step aside for the younger generation?

There is no alternative ultimately. The yardstick suggests that in spite all the noise, the people who are saying ‘Jonathan will not run, we want zoning to the North, etc,’ are mostly from the older generation in the North. You know that 60% of the population of Nigeria is less than 30 years old, 75 % is less than 60 years.

Those of us above 65 years form less than five per cent of the population . What does that suggest to you? Really, Babangida, Buhari, Atiku and the rest of them are already beyond the age where if there was democracy, demographic democracy will be against them.

So, that is why they want zoning, as it were, to foreclose discussion, short-circuit giving Nigerians, especially younger Nigerians the opportunity to express their views. In the houses of most people of my generation, their children don’t think the way we think.

They know that a better Nigeria is possible and they know we made a mess of it. If I were their shoes, I will just respect and conserve my dignity because the shock that these elections will bring will be quite devastating. What people are projecting will not happen.

I can give you an analysis why even in the North, all this noise is a lot of air. First of all, there are three tendencies in the North as we speak. There is the old generation, who are going back to the mind set of Sir Ahmadu Bello, which in fairness to Ahmadu Bello, he had turned away from that mind set before he died.

Ahmadu Bello on October 12, 1960 as reported in The Parrot, which was a column in those days, said something along the lines that the new country called Nigeria was an estate of his great grand-father, Othman Dan Fodio. Therefore, they must on no account allow power to change hands. In the process of maintaining power, they would use the Northern minorities as willing tools and the Southern minorities as conquered territories.

So, what is playing out now in the minds of people like Alhaji Adamu Ciroma, Tanko Yakassai, etc, is that old mind set. But Nigeria has gone away from that. Even Ahmadu Bello had gone away from that. The late Amb. Jolly Tanko Yusuf, the first chairman of the Alliance for Democracy, AD, told us a lot of stories. We worked closely in some of these political initiatives at certain stage.

Ahmadu Bello was sincere enough that he worked closely with some Christians and minority Northerners and sincerely not to rebuild his great grand father estate but the nation. But the following generation – my generation, there are some, who still have that mind set and they are the proponents of zoning, etc. That is one tendency in the North and despite the noise, it is a minority tendency.

The second tendency is the one represented by young, competent Northerners, who recognise that, ‘yes, we may be northerners, we are Nigerians. Nigeria is the future and we will give our service to Nigeria.’ They are well-educated, competent and have held offices, particularly in the private sector and have made their success stories. You speak to them privately, an
overwhelming majority of them, which is also the demographic majority, do not want zoning and are prepared to have Jonathan given a fair chance.

You know where the younger Shagari stays on the issue? He wants people to vote for Jonathan. Nasir el-Rufai is the same. I can name more of such younger people. That is the future of Nigeria. That is the future of the North.

The third group is represented by people like Buhari, who see the promise of Nigeria and want that better future to come. I think Buhari is sincere but he has a baggage of history. Even if the whole North votes for him, it will not make him the president of Nigeria. And there are political roles he played in the past that do not make it easy for all sections of the non-northern part of Nigeria to be comfortable with him. But I believe that a man like him still has a role to play in the emergence of that new Nigeria but with a younger leadership.

President Jonathan has not declared he is running, no electoral promise of any kind to the electorate and yet you are backing him. Is his approach in order?

Jonathan is doing what he ought to do at this point in time. He has been put in a place where the results he produces as president in a very short period may be an important factor for you and me deciding to give him a second chance.

So, if his pre-occupation becomes to produce results whether in the power sector or wherever before he starts telling you what his future plans are, I think it shows a certain kind of basic wisdom. We must respect that because it means he is not taking us for granted.

When you now come to the details, neither Jonathan nor Nigeria has any alternative but to allow him to continue. First of all, Jonathan does not know how he came to the position he is in.

None of us can take credit for it. Even former President Olusegun Obasanjo that people say brought Jonathan cannot take credit for his emergence. Some will say it is providence. Some of us who believe that there is a higher power called God, will say it is God’s intervention.

Like most things, when God intervenes, there is a purpose for it. When humans start intervening in things God had more or less put the ground rules, you are being presumptuous.

And that is why any human being now saying he wants to stop Jonathan is embarking on wishful thinking because we do not know yet what the inscrutable mind of God has in this purpose.

All we can do is play our part as human beings, not in opposition to His will but let His will be done.

There is also the moral dimension even though so many of my northern compatriots have tended to play it down. They have been shouting that there was an agreement, which if you don’t keep is not moral. But there is even a longer-lasting agreement that imposes a greater moral burden on them.

Since independence, no Northern political leader had emerged without the support of what we now call the South-South geo-political zone. In other words, people who had given you consistent support for 50 years, the only time that through accident of history it is their opportunity to have a chance at that which you have managed on your own for 38 years out of 50 years, there is something immoral in not recognising that you have a certain duty, an obligation in such circumstances.

So, those opposed to Jonathan forgetting the geo-political implications of that are taking a risk on Nigeria and Nigeria could pay a very heavy price for it.

The reason is simple. An important weapon that has been used in the predominantly Northern political equation in Nigeria has been the element of violence. It was violence that was used through military control, who are managers of violence. It was also violence that gave rise to the progroms and so that redrew the demographic boundaries of Nigeria. Easterners in the North and West streamed back to the East forcefully.

It was also violence, whether ethnic or religious-related, that had been used as part of the instruments to maintain power over the last 50 years.

There was no equivalent countervailing force in the South. The Biafran one was an incident, which you could not help under the circumstances that it developed but it was momentary. Now, you have the potential for a counter force as represented by the insurrection in the Niger Delta.

Once you offend the Niger Delta by this riding of a high horse that only the North can pursue, those who do it must take full responsibility for the consequences for the greater Nigeria. That is why I have told people in religious circles, this is the time to pray for Nigeria.

Jonathan’s emergence has put Nigeria on a knife edge. When the right forces play out, we will see the birth of a new Nigeria in which where you come is not a deciding factor as to what you get out of Nigeria but what you can put into it.

If you mishandle it and give the signal that ‘it must be the way I want it at all cost’ even when the evidence of history show that you have had more than your fair share, demography or no demography, you may see that the so-called minority can hold everybody to ransom.

Could you comment on the decision of the South-East governors not contest the presidency or vice presidency position so as to chart a political course for the zone?

It is a very wise approach, very unlike the usual Igbo politicians’ gambit. What has kept the Igbo where they are is that our political leaders, without exception, up till now have tended to be people who negotiated their interests even at the risk of group interest. For the first time, we have political leaders in Igboland, who are saying, ‘look, my interest is not the most important now but the interest of my people .

To know what is in the best interest of my people, let’s watch and see who will gives a better deal.’ I think it was a very wise approach.

As a member of the Imeobi (inner caucus) of Ohanaeze Ndigbo, why is the apex Igbo organisation not taking a stand on the issue of zoning and other burning political issues ahead the 2011 polls?

People misunderstand what the role of Ohanaeze should be. Ohanaeze is a socio-cultural organisation of all Igbos whether in Delta, Rivers or South-East. Socio-cultural and socio-economic relations become important because they can shape socio-political relations.

To that extent, the priority for Ohanaeze should not be to direct the Igbos on a political path but to watch everything, analyse it, encourage everybody to put their ideas on the table so that a consensus emerges. That consensus becomes the one that Ohanaeze spreads. It is not to make pronouncements. The day Ohanaeze starts making fire-written political statements that day it will lose its relevance and the moral authority it should have.

How would assess Governor Babatunde Fashola of Lagos, three years after?

Fashola, first and foremost is the discovery of this particular stage of Nigeria’s political history. Without doubts, he is the best of the class of 2007 among the governors. Yes, he has advantages but there are others who have advantage but have not used it as well as Fashola has used his own.

However, Fashola has a burden. Moving forward, you will find that he has to broaden the base of his acceptability. I have just related about the ethnic mix in Lagos. Lagos is no longer a Yoruba city, it is a cosmopolitan city in Nigeria. Indeed, to a certain extent, it is a global city. It is one of the emerging mega cities of the 21st century. ency that he should take into account.

You live in Lekki. What is your take on the controversy surrounding the proposed tolling of the
Lekki-Epe Expressway?

I was the founding director general of the Nigeria Economic Summit Group, NESG. We are the ones who pushed the idea that government resources cannot be enough to develop the society. To take it to the modern 21st century world, you must have a relationship with the private sector.

We went on to talk about ‘let the government create the enabling environment, create incentives and the private sector will be the engine of growth of the economy.’ The Lekki thing is a good example of it and the need for partnership cannot be faulted. However, if you are going into a public, private sector partnership, it is not only between the partners, the population you will serve or the service will serve are important stakeholders and you should also consult them.

What is happening obviously is maybe the consultation did not go down to the grassroots at the initiation stage as it ought to. Nevertheless, once it becomes necessary, you re-negotiate.

In re-negotiating, you must remember two things: there has to be a balance between the investment made by the private sector and the returns they get out of it. If the return passes a certain threshold, it will become uncomfortable to the population and they will resist it.

Now, if you translate that into practical terms; on a 50 kilometre stretch of road, to think you will have three toll gates within a distance of 23 kilometres, is too much. Perhaps, if you have one at the beginning and another at the end of the road, people may complain but they might live with it. I think that is the area they have to look at.

How would you assess Jonathan’s performance in office four months after?

Given the efforts to distract him from his core impression to make a difference in less than a year, I think he has done very well. Also looking at the circumstances or the intrigues that went on before he ascended, he has also managed the forces well. Thirdly, the emphasis he is putting forward as the priorities, going forward, are the right priorities.

Looking at everything, I believe in his continuing to unleash forces that can make a difference in the country. Let’s not forget that of all Nigerian leaders, he is the best educated. He has been distracted by the nature of Nigerian politics so far but a trained mind makes a difference.

And ultimately, Nigerians will see the difference between having a trained leader and people who stumble into leadership.

You were a member of Vision 2010. How far did Nigeria pursue the vision?

Vision 2010 was a stillbirth. When Obasanjo came on the scene, there was a blueprint that he could have taken and run but he didn’t. He started taking elements of it later on when he discovered what it was. But it is not the same because a vision is a vision, it goes cohesively together.

A vision is not a development plan so you can’t take what you like. You either take it holistically or you avoid it. When he started picking instead of embracing it altogether there was a limit to what could be achieved.

However, most people will agree that his first term was a disaster compared to his second term. The reason was that for his second term, there was a blueprint that guided what government was doing. I have the privilege to have been asked and it was sanctioned by Obasanjo himself, to chair a small committee of six people.

I was the only man of my generation in that committee. All the others were brilliant young leaders. The masterstroke why that report was changing events for Obasanjo’s administration was the fact that he had the good sense to take three members of that committee and made them members of his government in his second term.

Two of those members became members of the Economic Management Team – El-Rufai and Bode Agusto. So by the time that Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala and Prof Chukwuma Soludo, etc came into the team there was at least a guiding framework and it was easy for them to hit the ground and start running.

Within the circle of economic managers there were people who could explain why a suggestion was made to go this way or that way. The lesson from that is that a government that has a clear view of where it is going and has minds that are prepared will always achieve more than people happening to situations by accident or politically-manipulated design.

That takes us to Vision 20-2020. Do you see Nigeria recording any mileage?

I am always hopeful. Some of my friends say that my problem is that I am incorrigibly optimistic whenever Nigeria is considered. Vision 20-2020 is within the reals of possibility but
the conditions for it are quite stringent.

When they started the programme, I was invited to serve on it but I politely declined because I did not think they were serious and I said so to Shamsdeen Usman, who incidentally was in Vision 2010 and knew what my role in that first attempt was.

He understood my position. I told him we had always failed at the point of implementation that until they convince me that they were serious with the implementation that I would not get involve and I did not get involved.

When they finished, he got back to me and said. ‘Please Prof, I am putting you forward to serve in the Central Working Committee, CWC for the Implementation Plan. Please don’t say no.’ So, I agreed. I was the chairman of the Regional Development of the Implementation Committee under the CWC chaired by Chief Philip Asiodu.

We believe we did a good job. Jonathan has launched it, which means the government has accepted it. So, if Nigerians reaffirm their confidence in Jonathan and say ‘go ahead!’ it means just as I said about Obasanjo’s second term, Jonathan will be coming into office hitting the ground and running straight away because there is a plan to guide what to do.

People say it is just 10 years away. What we want to do is in many ways earth-shaking and our history does not give confidence that we had done things that way before. There is always a new beginning for any nation.

China is a good example. After wandering for years from 1948 till probably 1978, they had all sorts of hiccups. But between 1978 and 1990, the framework of what we are seeing now, the huge economy that is driving China was set in those short 11 years. So, if China has done it in 11 years, who says Nigeria cannot do it in 10 years?

That is also the reason I said my generation is out of it because the new ideas, new energies and technologies that are relevant to development neither Babangida norAtiku nor even myself even though I am a scientist, can be comfortable with them. Only the young generation can be comfortable with them.

If we are there giving them the moral encouragement and social management skills and experience, if we are not among the first 20 economies in the world by year 2020 but are among the first 25, that is still a very good place from where we are.
Zero tolerance for corruption was a factor that favoured China’s meteoric recovery. Can Nigeria make it in the face of high-wire graft?

Until you deal with the ogre of corruption, you are not going anywhere. That is particularly pathetic.

When you get to a situation where three successive heads of state of one country are named internationally, documented by name of money passing hands, you know it means that the world has already decided your case is beyond redemption. But you cannot say anybody is beyond redemption, only God can say who is beyond redemption. So, Nigeria is still redeemable. I am hopeful that a change will come.

Now, some people are being charged for the Halliburton case. You may not always punish all the people who are guilty, the important thing is to serve notice that it is possible in a system that when you are caught you are punished. You serve notice to people that ‘although in this society anything goes, there are still limits.

There are things that if you do you have ruined your entire career.’ That is what has been lacking in Nigeria and that is what is slowly creeping back. Among the political class, I don’t think they are still as reckless and acting with impunity as they used to be.

Bode George is there to remind people of what could happen if you are too forward. It is true that his case is not finished, the fact that a man like him could be where he is for 18 months is a lesson and because of it I am hopeful that slowly and surely corruption will start being fought perhaps selectively to begin with but later comprehensively as they get more confidence.

Some Northern leaders last week urged President Jonathan not to use the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC, to fight governors who are opposed to his presidential ambition. Doesn’t that defeat the selective approach?

It is not the type of selectivity I am talking about because their own selectivity including their own noise is also selective. They don’t want corruption to be fought because if you go through history, most of them took part in the Leyland scandal in the 70s, Scania Bus, etc.

They are already speaking from a position of self-interest and self-preservation. The truth of the matter is and the EFCC has answered them: when is it that you should investigate petitions on corruption and when is it that you should not?

The truth of the matter is, where we are, whenever your case comes up expect no reprieve.

The only reprieve is to do things right. We cannot tell an institution that has constitutional responsibilities when and how to do them so long as what they are doing is legal and constitutional.

If the EFCC starts using extra-legal methods, I will be the first person to defend the victims because the Nigerian law presumes an accused innocent until proven guilty and if you allow injustice against one person that injustice could come to you.
What is the way forward for Nigeria ahead 2011 polls?

Despite all the fears and concerns, I am hopeful. Even though I told you that we are on a knife edge, I think the odds are probably 55-60 % that we can manage it; certainly less than 50% that we will fail.

It is still a knife edge because one unexpected blowout could still create a problem. However, I think the future is still bright. Like it happened in China, the transition may be so fast that when it starts moving, we won’t believe that it is the same country. It will happen. Make sure that your vote counts and protect your votes.

Be sure that you take interest in the political process so that at least you will educate yourself what the parties are promising and choose the candidates that will serve your interest. When we don’t take interest in how the candidates emerge, the chances are that the wrong people can be there and that is where the wrong leadership begins from.

Throughout the last 10 years, since 1999, in the National Assembly they have some 419 people, some are people accused of murders. We are luck things are not worse than what we have. Moving forward, we have to return integrity to service and politics by participating actively

What do you make of the high cost of governance in Nigeria and jumbo pay for lawmakers?

As far back as March 2009, I said that each National Assembly man was costing nigeria N274 million a year.

That is including their salaries, allowances and the money they use in running the National Assembly. I said in a country where 70 per cent of the population is living below the poverty line that is not a sustainable level of expenditure for your legislative arm.

The truth is not just the National Assembly, the cost of governance in Nigeria is too high. And unless you deal with that you will never really be able to put your hands together in terms of the development priorities to now take us to 20-2020 the way we envisaged.

Some have said one way of dealing with it is returning to the parliamentary system of government. It may be so but once you develop a system people develop vested interest in it and the battle you have to fight to change it is at times not worth it.

So the issue now is not how to change the presidential system we are running but how to make it affordable. First is to reduce the length of time they have to be there. Nigeria cannot afford full-time members of the National Assembly. Second is, in the spirit of sacrifice for nation-building, they themselves must agree that what they earn must be tied to the average earning capacity of the country.

There has to be a relationship between the GDP per capita and what the lawmakers or any other person in public office earns.

There is something that economists call the GINI coefficient, which shows that when the gap between what the lowest paid people and highest paid people are earning is too wide, that society can never be stable. That is where Nigeria is because your wealthy people are so mind-bogglingly wealthy and the poor people are the poorest of the poor. No society with that kind of gap can survive.

It comes back to the nature of our politics. Right now, because of the perquisites and the various benefits that being in political office affords, many people are rushing into politics as a way to make ends meet, no longer as an avenue for service. We have to change the entire value system.

And you have to do it by creating incentives for good performance for those who are prepared to make sacrifices for the nation and at the same time have clearly what should be done to those who embark on self-aggrandisement.
Your take on Nigeria at 50?

My prayer is that in this 50th year of our independence anniversary, God should give us a better opportunity to serve our country, give us peace, give us understanding and above all, give us leaders, who are prepared to serve.