HIS WORDS ON MARBLE
Some time in 2004, the CHINUA ACHEBE FOUNDATION partnered with Vanguard to publish a series of interviews with very prominent and influential Nigerians.

Dim Chukwuemeka Odumegwu Ojukwu featured. Conducted by Professor Nnaemeka Ikpeze (Professor of Economics at the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, and the Dean of the School of General Studies, among others at that time) and Nduka Otiono (an award-winning writer, General Secretary, Association of Nigerian Authors; an associate lecturer, English Department, University of Ibadan, among others at that time), the interview represents the most expansive, to date, of the life, times and beliefs of Ojukwu.

Today, we re-present excerpts from the interview, which was first published in Vanguard in 2005, as a fitting tribute. Excerpts:

Chief Odumegwu Ojukwu and Bianca at APGA presidential rally at Nnamdi Azikiwe Stadium, Enugu.

THE TROUBLE WITH NIGERIA

Which of these factors, in your view, constitutes the greatest danger surrounding Nigerian politics?

A defective government structure, a muddled inseparable constitution, or a corrupt, visionless leadership?

You could just simplify the question. Once you’ve factored corruption into the equation, you have your culprit! How does one describe it? Corruption is visionless, the very worst thing. We must be determined to uproot it. I say this, because, sadly, I have to accept that I haven’t seen an incorruptible polity anywhere in the world; so it’s a question of reduction. Corruption eats into everything, destroys everything. It destroys vision, hope, and preserves nothing.

THE ANAMBRA CRISIS

If corruption destroys everything then what about godfatherism…especially in your own home state, Anambra?

Well, you cannot sidestep the fact that godfatherism is corruption. I don’t see any difference. Get me a dictionary of political thought and behind that word is corruption.

What are your feelings about the recent events in Anambra State?

You are persistent, aren’t you? (LAUGHTER)

We will not be forgiven if we do not ask such a crucial question!

Well…there is no real problem in Anambra. The problem I find in it — that I tell fellow Nigerians — is that for some unknown reasons, non-indigenous leaders and rulers have found it necessary to vest political authority on certain indigenes of Anambra State lacking political address (LAUGHTER). People who have no experience, an incredible lack of knowledge; people whose most recent address was in prison or some such place; and, of all places, Anambra – a state teeming with intellectuals!

And then, unforgivably, the intellectuals are subordinated to these people without address. That is simply a case of government going to the dogs. What you see in Anambra State is a reflection of what people with vested interest produce: chaos – that’s what they have done. The situation in Anambra raises the issue of political will.

LEADERSHIP, CORRUPTION AND THE NIGERIAN ELITE

In a sense, this is analogous to the larger situation in the country where you have individuals who, on their own, exhibit excellence; tragically, however, Nigerians collectively seem unable to accomplish much that is of great merit…

The problem with Nigeria is one of ethnicity. Somehow, if we can solve that problem… if the various ethnic groups are made comfortable in Nigeria, there will be less tension. And it seems to me that this is the reason why no graduate has ever led Nigeria. Clearly, whoever leads the country becomes the apex of whatever ethnic group, interest, he represents. This is the only way, then, that these leaders may excel in a country where a great many are graduates of often great intelligence. This is their only chance to subordinate; this matters a great deal to such leaders.

Is this not partly the result of the failure of the elite to which you belong? We imagine the elite as a constituency – perhaps, in the same way we may view the military and other groups?

No, no, no; but let us talk about the so-called elite. You cannot have a class of elites at the national level when there is no nation to speak of; that’s the genesis of our problem. What we actually have is a show of elitism; pseudo-elites, pseudo-intellectuals, pseudo- this and that…to a great extent. Once we, indeed, build a nation, there will be proper national elite, and they will come into their role, which is leadership.

Your political tenets in the book, Because I am Involved, include statements like: “Sovereignty and power belong to the people (p.53)” and “Leadership is the true vocation of elitism (p.146).” Some might see this as evocative of incongruence in your vision of functional politics; would you please explain to us this structural and ideological paradigm?

I would like an example of the conflict you refer to; I, actually, don’t see that there is one.

Well, we refer to your addressing the question of the elite and the sovereignty of the people…you have tried to explain that ethnic tensions have largely made it difficult to have a broad elite, a national elite structure in Nigeria. But when one talks about sovereignty and power, and, on the other hand, the true vocation of elitism, there seems to be conflict between the people and a privileged class?

No; it’s a necessary part of the people.

Even in terms of the interests each group represent?

The interests that the elite serve is that of leadership and guidance; that is its vocation in the national structure, and there is no organization, ethnic group that does not develop an elite class for that purpose. One of the things that became very apparent in communism is that, in every state, the party created a political class of elites… And it could not escape doing so, because, actually, the market cannot lead a nation. Power belongs to the people, but to be able to use that power properly, an elite group evolves that devotes its time to helping out, leading, and creating a vision…

In other words, elitism is not a dirty word per se?

No, certainly not. It is, in fact, one of the most envied positions in every organisation in society.

We have been talking about the burden of corruption, and as Prof Ikpeze had indicated earlier, this project is aimed at articulating a problem solving dialogue. On the issue of corruption, Transparency International has rated Nigeria very poorly, what in your opinion do you believe should be done to arrest this blight on the nation?

I really do not think we are serious about arresting the scourge of corruption.

No?

In spite of the exploits of EFCC (Economic and Financial Crimes Commission) and ICPC (Independent Corrupt Practices Commission)?

Corruption continues to stare us in the face, and we turn away from it; yet you mention EFCC…or what?!

But let us not forget the case of Tafa Balogun, the Inspector-General of Police…

Is he the only corrupt policeman in the nation?

And Dariye, the governor of Plateau State?

Is he the only politician ever to be accused of corruption?

There are some other recent examples like Prof. Osuji and Chief Wabara; but we see where you are going with this…So what systemic approach do you suggest?

We must, as a people, learn to ask questions and in the process end up with the right questions. Someone is accused of being corrupt; yet we permit him absolute freedom to benefit from the proceeds of corruption?

That means there’s no deterrence?

Of course, not!!! Listen; my attitude is this — basically, many Nigerians are corrupt in their search for luxury and for privilege…yet when I observe someone building a mansion of marble, his or her lavish lifestyle, and I do not readily see any reasonable sources of income; should not the first thing to come to my mind, be the question: How did you make, how are you making your money?

“Oga…how come, now?”

You can then say to me: “Foolish man, haven’t you heard about that tree in my garden?”

“What tree?”

“Ah, that special tree, that juju tree. All the leaves are N500 notes.” (LAUGHTER)

But, we never ask that. We must all understand that asking that question is no accusation. Asking such a question is purely seeking enlightenment.

Your reply should not be to then accuse him of being corrupt; what you do first is say to him:

“Ahh…come show me the tree.” When you get there, if indeed you see the tree, and the leaves are all N500 notes, you can then make sure that nobody is listening before begging him: “Please give me a seed, now…”

There is nothing wrong in that; you have done nothing wrong. But if you get to his house, and there is no such tree, you should be strong enough to accuse him, publicly, of a corrupt means of livelihood. Because obviously, there is some other method of getting money that he is reluctant to reveal, and that is where you exercise moral judgment.

THE MILITARY AND POLITICS

Would you describe the incursion of the army into politics as part of the intractable political problems of Nigeria?

I have never agreed with the army going into politics. And you know that coming from a very prominent member of the first military government of Nigeria, this is very serious. It’s unfortunate; this situation destroyed the army, and destroyed Nigeria as well. What we are trying to do, I hope, all of us — is to create a Nigeria where the military will not need to step into politics again, never again.

If you have the opportunity, would you define the role of the army in Nigeria power structure, and a strategy for putting the genie back in the bottle and keeping it there forever?

The first duty of the army is to protect the sovereignty… Those who did that before us, had this to say — that once that power is used against civil authority, it becomes ruthless; the only answer is the total disbandment of that body of armed forces. The problem of Nigeria is this constant attempt to patch up. The term ‘Nigerian army’ should have been dispensed with a long time ago.

And what would happen to the country’s security?

Reconstituted…it would be reconstituted. I was part of the little team that was sent to hold Tanzania together when the army mutinied. Yes, I was part of the contingent. So there are pertinent roles for the armed forces. All we need is the political will. The problem lies in trying to patch things up…find a different role, build up an entirely new force; we shouldn’t try to patch anything up. That has been the problem of Nigeria.

Sort of putting old wine in new bottles?

Oh yes.

ON ABACHA

There is the criticism of your relationship with the late dictator, Sani Abacha; do you reflect on that with any fondness?

No…but I liked and understood Sani Abacha. I also discovered that most people are cowards. A lot of people never made up their minds about Sani Abacha; they simply reflected the likes and dislikes of other people. He is someone I had interesting discussions with. I have often been told that…….

TO BE CONTINUED