By  Abdulwahab Abdulah

The fight against corruption in the country has reached a level where the judicial arm of government is not spared. Judiciary before now was well referred among the other three arms of  government, however recent revelations have proved to the contrary. In this interview, a retired academic and a justice of the High court of the Federal Capital Territory (FCT), Professor, Justice Abdul-Fatai Kuti suggested that judges convicted for corruption be sentenced to life imprisonment or their assets confiscated. He also spoke on the controversial grazing bill as well as state police.

Excerpts:

As a retired High Court Judge, what do you think can be done to achieve judicial independence?

Justice Abdul-Fatai Kuti

We should have people who are bold enough to say their mind. I was offered a job by the late Chief Justice of Nigeria, CJN, Mohammed Bello and I refused and he said I would regret it.

I was offered a job to the International Criminal Court and I rejected it. We must have people who can stand on principles and be bold. I did that on personal reasons which I would not disclose at this stage.

I am the only African who rejected the job.  Whenever I go to my bank, people run helter-skelter to attend to me, yet I don’t take overdraft. I had been in Abuja where people came after I have decided a case with bags full of dollars and I refused.

I was given a house with swimming pool and all that and I refused. People must be bold, courageous and principled. That is part of what can guarantee judicial independence.

We are looking at the judiciary as an institution. For instance, the judiciary is still depending on the executive for funds.   The president is the only person that can allow the judiciary to be independent in the sense that no president should allow anybody to be above the law.

We must shun the issue of plea-bargaining. You agree that you are guilty so that you will not get the full judgement, which normally you would have got. For instance, if you are accused of murder and you say I am guilty of manslaughter so that you would not be executed. That is not law. This is what we need to do.

The slow pace of justice delivery has been a stumbling block to the judiciary such that some are asking for judicial automation. Anything that is going to improve the judiciary technologically should be done. Land cases doesn’t need to stay up to 30 years, what is happening? Is it the salary or the discomfort of the chambers and whatever? They must do whatever that can improve the sector.

Do you think it is possible for the President to know the character of those to be appointed as judges?

It is the  work of the National Judicial Council (NJC) to do a thorough work when the president gives them directive for appointment of new judges  into Federal Courts. The president will give them directive that he wants good people irrespective of their ethnic background because he himself is detribalised.

What of the judges who are on the bench already?

My view before now was that corrupt or convicted judges should be executed. But I have mellow down on that because in most of the countries of the world now, you don’t execute them any more. So we give them life sentence. That will serve as deterrent. Once they know that they would go for life imprisonment, they will do well. Once they know that their properties would be confiscated, they will do well. There must be a kind of deterrent. But if they are old like myself, 80 and above, you can’t send them to prison. You will confiscate their properties and give them heavy fine.

What if they are unable to pay their fine?

Then they go to prison. Judges are wicked, maybe you do not know. We are wicked. How can they say that they should go and execute someone and within minutes it is done? We are not God but we are following the law. Justice must be done without fear or favour, affection or ill-will. Even your own son, you can try and convict him. The same applies to your mother, father and brothers. Is that not wickedness? We are wicked people.

Do you agree that we should have a special court to try corruption cases?

Yes, I support that.

But some say if we go that way, we might have special courts for every issue?

I doesn’t follow.  Special cases require special treatment.

Are you saying that the regular courts are not competent enough to do the job?

I am not condemning any court. Don’t condemn the regular courts. If you want to have another court, have it but don’t condemn anything.

What is your opinion on the controversy surrounding the  national grazing bill?

I have no comment on that because it is very controversial. As a judge, I am apolitical, whether you are retired or you are working, you don’t dabble into politics. Because the law is made for the people and not the people for the law. Whatever the president wants is what will happen in Nigeria.

The bill is not about the president. It is reportedly before the National Assembly for consideration.

The bill will go through different stages before it can become law and people who are more intelligent will still sit and do a critic of it. So let us leave it as it is.

The constitution says the security and welfare of the people is the primary responsibility of the  government. In your own view, is this government doing that?

As far as I am concerned, this government is going to do that whether you like it or not. Give this government a chance. You don’t build government in a day. Rome was not built in a day. It takes time. This government is going to succeed whether people like it or not.

Do you have an opinion as to what needs to be done?

I have no comment on that. I don’t have. What I want is whatever that would improve the system.

Assuming you are called upon to serve in a committee to oversee a process by the president, what will you do?

I will decline. I don’t want to be in any committee. If Buhari call me, I will tell him that I don’t want anything from him.

You mean you cannot serve this country any more in any capacity?

I cannot, at 79? It depends on your health. No, I cannot work at 79. I don’t need money any more.

What is your view on state police?

Let every state has its own state police. People in an area know themselves, they will be able to give the police enough information on crime.

What is the level of gift or gratification a judge can accept from his friends and colleagues?

As a Judge you don’t need gratification. What for? You don’t need their money at all. Let them do their work and thank God. In my own case, I was never in practice except for two years out of the 47 years, I never took any money from anybody.

That means that you did not have practice experience?

I don’t need it. I was in the foreign service. It was more than practice experience.

That means that your experience in litigation and advocacy would be limited?

It is not limited. Those two years, if you know what I learnt you will clap for me. I am not praising myself.

For that two years, did you appear before the Supreme Court?

I did not appear before the Supreme Court, but I appeared in other lower courts. It is not appearing before the Supreme Court that matters. My own uncle, Teslim Elias, did not practice in Nigeria. He came from England with a QC and he was appointed into the Supreme Court as an attorney general. So what are you talking about? And the record is there.

There are good judges who came from the academia such as late Idigbe, Nnaemeka Agu, Ganiyu Agbaje, Yemisi Omoleye and others. Brilliant lawyers can be appointed into the Supreme Court. Even Agbakoba was the son a chief judge of Eastern Nigeria. Make him a judge today and you will enjoy him. I am not campaigning for him though I know him very well.