His passion for the unity and development of Nigeria stood obvious. Well versed in the historical and political evolutions of Nigeria and their attended impacts on the country’s journey to nationhood, he  sat glued in his Mazadu Chambers in Gombe, venue of the appointment, tenaciously fielding questions from the Reporter.

And so, for almost an hour, Zubairu Mohammed Umar,  told Saturday Vanguard’s JOHN BULUS that Nigeria is an Act of God and therefore unbreakable. Excerpts:

It is Nigeria’s 52nd Independence anniversary as well two years away to centenary since the amalgamation of Northern and Southern Protectorates in 1914 that made Nigeria.  How has Nigeria fared in its journey to nationhood?

Well, we thank the Almighty God for making Nigeria what it is. And we thank Him for Nigeria being what it is now because, Nigeria has moved from stone Age, I would say, to analog age  and to digital age. Nigeria has moved on despite the challenges and the negative comments people may be inclined to make about Nigeria not progressing.

I would say, quite honestly, that Nigeria has progressed. We are not where we want to be, but certainly, we are making progress. From 1914 when the North and South were amalgamated, we have seen a lot of things happening. Of course, one is not up to hundred years as to say one was around in 1914 but from what one has been able to read or hear from elders, one can easily say that Nigeria is a good story so far. We have developed very well.

We have achieved so much and we have laid sufficient foundation for future generation to make Nigeria better than what it is today because, even for those of us who are just on their way to be 50, one would say that the last 52 years, from Independence to now, I think, if you look at all the indices of development, Nigeria has achieved quite tremendously. What we had in 1960 is just nothing compared to what we have now.

Go to any sector of life, you would discover that we have moved very, very far and high, the number of Universities we have now, the number of Colleges of Education we have now, how many Polytechnics you have now, how many cities that have now sprung up to be what they are, and they can stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the best cities in the world.

And if you look at the Health sector, we have teaching hospitals, specialist hospitals, clinics and all these kinds of primary, secondary and tertiary Health care facilities, they are just there that one can see and you can’t just compare to what we had in the 60s and 70s. Take the physical infrastructures like roads, you can see that.

You may say we are not satisfied but certainly we are far, far away from where we started. The number of Kilometers covered by tarred roads in Nigeria, I believe is more than fifty times compared to what it was in the 60s. And of course, the airports. In the 60s, how many airports did we have that were of international repute? May be Kano and Lagos.

But now, how many airports do we have that have international flights and how many airports do you have that service domestic requirements. You can see that we have gone very far.

And in terms of general welfare, I think Nigerians are better off. You may say poverty is high but compared to the population of the 60s and of now, and the way people are living, I think the standard of living has improved tremendously.

You would say that some people, a substantial number are living below the poverty line of less than one dollar per day, yes agreed, but you discover that we look healthier. We look better dressed, more cheerful despite the poverty than how it was in the 60s. So, things are just improving.

Let me take you on Agriculture. There were days and times Agriculture used to be the main stay of the economy. It does appear that a nation that was doing well in that sector in the 60s seems to be lagging now in that sector ?

Yes, I agree with you because, you see, how many were we in the 60s, may be 53 million? Okay, we might be producing to export when we were, say less than 53 million. Now, how many are we? We are over 153 million.

And land does not expand. It is the same land that our forefathers were using that is still now available. May be Nigeria has not conquered Cameroon, Niger or Benin republics to have a bigger land now that you can expand, no, it is the same Nigeria, the same land. And then, people are still farming.

We look at things from the point of view of what will come into the economy of the central government, the finances of the central government. But you see, the poor man of the 60s who used to go to his farm, cultivate the land and feed his family for the year is the same thing that is happening now. Majority of our people still go to their farm lands.

They cultivate the land and feed themselves. May be, we were expecting that by now, we should have been thinking that instead of the farmer cultivating to feed himself, he cultivate to export.

But then, have we been giving them the encouragement? Agreed that there might be some areas in agriculture that need further improvement but you see, don’t look at it from the angle of mechanized farming for the elites, maybe to go and have a large farmland, bring harvesters and then, exporting.

But look at it from the point of view of may be 50 or 60 percent of Nigerians who are agrarians, who just go to their land, cultivate the land and feed their families. So, you see the kind of poverty we are looking at in Nigeria is mostly in the urban area.

When somebody has left his village to come to the urban area thinking that he will get a
better life, but he comes and discovers that life is not better and he will not be able to go back to his own village because he has become used to the urban area. So, it is this man that is now compounding our poverty problems.

Go to the villages now and see, they don’t even give a damn about government. They don’t care because they have things they have been relying on for years and they have been surviving. Well and good if we can afford to take all these benefits to them but they don’t even care, they don’t even complain because some of them think they you are exposing them to all these kinds of things you cannot afford to give them.

So, what is the essence of whetting their appetite when you cannot satisfy it?  You cannot satisfy their hunger and then you have whetted their appetite. You have shown them electricity which you cannot give them sufficiently.

You have shown them pipe borne water which you cannot supply to them. You have shown them the modern medicine and you cannot supply it. So, he would rather prefer getting his water from his own well, getting his medicine through how his parent had thought him how to treat himself to the modern trends of exposing them to all these kinds of new things which you cannot sustain.

What is the essence of trying to give somebody something today and you cannot sustain it tomorrow? Most of our people are in their villages. Most of them are comfortable with life. But we want to put ourselves into their own position.

Do you think that we should continue depending on oil, running a mono economy or diversify to help the economy?

To whose benefits? Diversify the economy? Now, where is the oil? You see some people making billions of dollars, Naira from oil. Is it going to the common man? The common man does not even know you have oil in Nigeria. He doesn’t give a damn.

The moment he has gone to his farm, cultivate his land and bring his food…look, he does not even know what you call corruption. In fact, I get pissed off when they say Nigeria is a very corrupt country.

Is it because some elites are corrupt? That does not mean Nigeria is a corrupt country because the elites are not the representatives of Nigerians. How many elites do we have? Ten million elites? Out of 160 million Nigerians?

How can you go  and insult my father, my uncle and my brother who are in the villages, who do not even know the meaning of corruption, who are not corrupt, who do not receive any bribe?

They are not exposed to that and you just bring all of them and say Nigeria is a corrupt country? Just because the elites are corrupt does not make Nigeria corrupt. So, if you diversify the economy, of course on whose benefits? It is the same elites that will now corner every thing.

The same elites that are now depriving us of fuel in the cities so that they will continue importing, the same elites that are frustrating our refineries to function, the same elites that are frustrating NEPA(PHCN) or whatever you call it from giving us light because they import generators.

They are the same people. So, if you diversify the economy, they are the same people that are going to corner everything. Please, it will not change anything as far as I am concerned.

Many people are of the view that Nigeria as an entity came by accident having been amalgamated by Lord Lugard in 1914, as, they argue, as the wish of the already existing societies. To this end, they said that the status quo should be maintained to bring out peace in the country. What is your take on this?

Nigeria did not come by accident. Nigerians are either Christians or Muslims and everybody believes in Divine intervention. So, it is ordained. It is not by accident. It is an act of God that we should come together.

If God hadn’t wished us to come together, we wouldn’t have been together. So, it is not by accident. God does not make mistakes and an act of God can never be an accident. It is destined by God to make us one country. So, how we run that country is another thing but God creates you, puts you in an environment and gives you the free will to now manage. So, have we managed the environment well?

Have we managed this God’s creation the way we should have managed it? That is the question. Let’s say yes, we have not managed it the way we should have managed it. Nigeria is a different nation. There is no country in this world of one hundred million people that is homogeneous. None.

I can’t think of any that we have the same tribe, the same culture, the same religion, the same racial inclination, no. No country like that. Every country you see is an amalgamation of small nations. Come to Gombe now, Gombe state can be a country. The thing is we have Fulani, we have Tangale, we have Bolawa, we have so many religions. So many religions. Some are Christians. Some are Muslims. Some are Animists.

So, can we say now that Gombe is an amalgamation by accident? It is just for administrative convenience. Now, go the south, even in Yoruba land, they have their own differences. If you go to Igbo land, they have different tribes, clans, culture, backgrounds from the same Igbo.

So, are you now telling me that if you go to Igbo land and this is a country, there will not be problems because they are only Igbos? No. Go to the south-south, we have the Ijaws, the Ibibios etc. All these people came together. So, now all these cultural groups should go in one line, then we will have more than 1000 countries than we have in Nigeria now.

No culture alone can form one country. I am from Gombe but I am different from Sokoto man even though we share the same religion. I am also different from Kano man even though we share religion.

I am different from Borno man even if we share different religion. So, the Tangale man who is a Christian, can you say he is the same Zuru man who is also a Christian? No. But religion has brought them together.

They live together or would you say they have to go and form their own different countries? No. it is not possible. So, those who are saying that Nigeria should disintegrate, into what? Into all these pieces?

Okay, from River Benue, you say all the North go and become one or everybody go to someone whom they have cultural affinity with, do you think there will be one love? Can the north be one? They won’t be.

Go to the south west now and say those people are Yorubas, they have their own difference even in Yoruba land. You discover different clan, culture, classes and everybody wants to be giving his own.

Let’s tie this to the prediction by the, Central Intelligence Agency, CIA that the country will disintegrate in 2015 and by 1914, it will be a centenary for Nigeria. Do you envisage that happening?

No. I don’t see that happening. The CIA did not create Nigeria. So, they will not cause Nigeria to disintegrate. We have gone through so many crises that, in fact, some of us believe there will not be Nigeria, yet Nigeria survived as a country. You see, if you think we are going to disintegrate, everybody will now sit down and think.

If we disintegrate, what do I stand to benefit than what I am benefiting now? What do I stand to lose more than I am losing now because it is not a market place decision to say we are going to disintegrate? Some people who have the brains should have to sit down and think. How can I say I want now to break up Nigeria? Where will the Yoruba man go?

Okay, let’s say the Yoruba should go back to Yoruba land, they have their own differences. Some people who were elected into Lagos state House of Assembly, some people are even protesting that these people are from Ogun State.

They should go back. Go to the south east, they have their own problems. Okay, give them their own country now. Where are you going to site their capital? Is it in Enugu? Okay, I think there is problem between Abia Governor and Imo over Civil service.

Go to the south-south, the Ijaws and the Ibibios sometimes do not see eye to eye. So, how do you think we are going to disintegrate? Who will sit down and say, now, divide Nigeria? How? On what table? Who will take up arms and say we are going to divide Nigeria? How are we going to divide Nigeria?

This is a fantasy of some people who will sit down at the comfort of their office and say Nigeria will break up. It will never break up because there is nothing to push Nigeria to break. And then, there is this danger in even thinking about that. Use your brains. If an Igbo man should say I want my own country, then all the Igbo people that are in Abuja, Kano, Lagos where will they go?

Will the north say okay, we are the country; every Igbo should go back to his land? The Igbo man, the Yoruba man who have invested his money every where, the Fulani who has taken his cattle to the south, will you tell him to leave them and go where? I think, these are malicious, wishful thinkings of some people and it is not going to materialize.

Let me say that you have read, heard or even witnessed the Nigeria Civil War between 1967 and 1970. And at the moment, there are youths wishing that Nigeria should go into that kind of situation again. If you are to advise them, what kind of words of admonition would you give?

I will ask them to ask their elders. Nigeria has gone through the war. Nigerians knew how they suffered. So, if the youths are now saying they want to take up arms, go and ask people like Chukwumerije or Ojukwu of blessed memory, all the elders of Igboland, ask them, would you advise that we should go back to war?

They will say no. Come to the north. Ask the elders; do they want war? They will tell you no. Go to the south-south, tell them we want to go to war so that we can get our country, would they advise you to go to war because that will be a futile effort. It does not have to, even if you have everything, you are not likely to defeat everybody to form your own country.

So, my advice is if you want to take up arms, ask those who have once taken up arms. Ask those against whom arms have been taken. You can now be clear that you are going to take up arms. If you want to disintegrate, who are you going to fight? That is the question.

It has often been said that political leadership is the problem of Nigeria. In fact, Professor Chinua Achebe once said that there is nothing wrong with Nigeria’s water, air, sea and of course, the environment but the leadership. How may you react to this?

I wouldn’t heap all the blames on the door steps of leadership. I think it is 50- 50.

The leadership is wrong, the followership is wrong too because right from the days of Tafawa Balewa to this day, I don’t think of a leader that came into office with the intention of destroying Nigeria.

Everybody came with the intention of leaving Nigeria better than the way he found it. Everybody came with the vision, the zeal and the desire to change things. Look at all the leaders; whoever came into the office, he came with a mission to make Nigeria better.

Every one of them whether it was through coup or through election, every candidate or person that went into office went with a clear mind that he wants to make Nigeria better that he found it. But he discovers that the previous leadership has made some mistakes and corrects those mistakes.

That is why you are in office. But have they achieved? No. they have not because, we, the followership don’t allow them to. We don’t encourage them and when they are wrong, instead of telling them what they are doing is wrong, we become sycophantic and say that what they are doing is right, even better than the previous one.

That is the problem. So, the leadership has a problem, but even the 50-50, honestly, I am being generous because I believe that the followership has made more mistakes because we do not stand up when we see our leaders going wrong.

The moment we put somebody in office with all the good intentions he has when he went into office, then the followership now starts showing him that he of this origin, of this religion or that political party, then he starts thinking in that direction.

If we can now say, Ok, you are the leader of all. Behave like a leader of all. If our leaders can behave that way, Nigeria would have been a better society. So, it is the followership that is now making the leadership be what it is.

The corruption, abuse of office, nepotism, it is because we are encouraging and allowing them to do that and we turn to our eyes away when they are doing that because if I accuse President Jonathan of doing wrong, the next thing is somebody going to abuse my region or reason.

If I praise Jonathan for what he is doing now, somebody will think I am being settled. No body will look at any objective commendation or objective criticism in a very, very objective manner. We attach sentiments to whatever we do for or against government.

And we don’t say good about our leaders. We don’t pray for them to be good. We always condemn them. We always look for their faults. We always show them they are bad, they can never be good. That is our  problem.

That takes us the making a comparison between the first and second republics politicians and the present day politicians. How would you compare them?

They are the same. The ones in the 60s and the ones today are the same. Because, look at the politicians in Nigeria, when there was a coup against Tafawa Belewa, there were allegations against the political class. That was the reason for the coup. Allegations against them were the reasons for the coup.

Now, we are saying, at that time, they were complaining against them, rightfully or wrongfully, they were complaining against them and that led to the military coup. People were not satisfied or it was assumed, that was why the soldiers came in.

And when they came in, we thought they will be our messiahs because who ever goes to an office, at the time he is in the office is being looked upon as a rogue, as a thief, like somebody who does not have patriotism, like somebody who is just their to feather his nest.

Everybody that has gone to the office from 1960 to date is being accused of one thing or the other. Until when he leaves office, they will begin to say he was better that his predecessor.

Now, for Shagari, there was a coup against him because of corruption, ineptitude, inflation and every thing. But has corruption stopped? And now, some of the Ministers of Shagari may be taken as good politicians. There is one form of allegation for every leader that goes into office. Now, Gowon is a hero.

Everywhere he goes he is seen as a gentleman but there was a time there was a coup against him, may be it was because of corruption and now they are heroes. So, you discover that it is the same thing all over, from the 60 to now, whoever that goes into the office, he will be insulted. He will be abused.

There will be allegations against him of being corrupt, nepotic and lazy, unpatriotic. Go to the archives, newspapers of the 70s, you will find condemnations against the politicians.

You will find condemnations against the office holders of the 70s. Go to the 80s, you will find condemnation of the office holders of the 80s. Every society, every community has at a time a leadership they will cry against.

You observed earlier that we have more Universities now. Let me remind you that these Universities churn out graduates every year and yet no jobs for them. How would you rate employment?

The mistake, I think, is right from independence. It has so happened that government, regional, central, native and may be local authorities are the largest employer of labour.

So, every graduate, every primary school certificate holder, even secondary school, when he finishes and he is not going further to reach his level of education, he looks upon either  the local authority, the state or federal government for employment. There is a limit to which federal, state or local government can employ.

They can’t employ everybody in fact, even now; the Civil Service is just over-bloated. So, the problem is not government not employing, no, the most important thing is to bring out an enabling environment so that private businesses will succeed, thereby employing more people. And I think as all these we are saying boil down to sufficient energy.

If you have electricity that will now provide the environment for businesses, small and large, I think, more and more will be employed. But relying on government for employment, I think that is where we are missing our point.

So, let government continue to provide the enabling environment, so that Nigerians will now sit up and establish their own medium or large scale businesses. With that people can be employed. All these graduates can be absorb into many sectors of the economy. But the thing is, there is insecurity, there is no electricity to power all these businesses.

That is why we don’t have room for employment.
Everybody is now relying on government for employment and government cannot employ. I mean when the Telecommunication was liberalized, you discovered how many people that were directly or indirectly employed. Look at how many people that have been employed by service providers.

They are employing directly or indirectly just because the enabling environment has been created for the telecommunication industry to thrive. If government will continue laying the necessary infrastructure, having a level playing ground, Nigerians will be willing to establish businesses that will now employ more and more people.

There are agitations for the creation of State Police and even more States in the country. Some say these are necessary components of a Federal Democracy. Do you think they are feasible at the moment?

Whether it is feasible in one thing and whether is desirable is another thing. Yes, I think so many arguments, for and against have gone on.

The one I like most was when somebody was saying instead of creating more dictators, sort of , like having 36 persons holding the reins of police and unleashing them on Nigerians, it is better to allow only one person, meaning, it is good to have only the president now or central government controlling the police. Even if it is going to be abused, it will be abused by only one person. But if you say that every state should, it means that 36 people are going to abuse you.

Now, my argument for state police is that ,well, it will be better controlled and better managed if we have Chief executives that will discharge their duties according to the oath of their office. If  they can use the police for the purposes the police are made, no body will have any quarrel with that.

I will personally not have any quarrel with that. But the danger is where the instrumentality of the state police will be abused by the Government. That is where the danger lies. That is where I am being inclined to go with those who say there should not be state police because we are afraid of abuse.

They will be manipulated. They will be influenced by some of these governors. Some governors may be level-headed and allow the police to have their own way and play according to the rules but some governors
especially now that politics is a very hot topic; you find that some governors may just use the police for the purposes of politics.

So, there is that danger and for that I will not support it. But if we can have an institutional frame work that will safeguard the police from an abuse. There is nothing wrong to having state police.

Suffice it to say that there could only be a single five year term for the governor or the president, because most of the abuse by police comes from a state governor that wants to stand for reelection, it is mostly then, they will use the security apparatus to win elections.

But if you say you have only one term, then you have minimized the tendency of the governors from misusing the instrumentality of the police. They may of course want to use the police because they may want to install their own chosen successor, but with time, may be, things will get better.

But if you are going to operate the constitution as it is now being operated, that the governors and the President will have two terms, the issue of reelection will now make the State police to be issue.

But if we make sure that the police operate independently from the interference of  the other arms of government, then one will support the creation of state police but if not, I will rather support the current situation that we have.

Police should be centrally controlled. But you know even the police that are directly under the control of  IG, sometimes, they dance to the whims and caprices of the Chief Executive. And the problem sometimes emanates from lack of sufficient funding from the federal government. The FG sometimes does not provide enough funding and logistics supports for the police as and when due.

So, you find the police command now going cap in hand to the state executive, looking for funding and support to execute their constitutional mandate and then, who pays the piper now dictates the tune. That is the problem.

So, if the police will now have independent funding devoid of any interference, I think the Police will perform wonderfully. Now, creation of state. I am a beneficiary of state creation because Gombe has been struggling to have a state for over 20 years until 1996 it was created.

I knew what Gombe was prior to 1996 and I know what Gombe is now. We have, in fact, enumerable benefits for state creation. We have practical, living examples in Gombe. With
what Gombe is now, you can’t compare it to what it was before creation. And going by the pace of development prior to the state creation, Gombe wouldn’t have been what it is now even under Bauchi state up till now.

Now, look at the progress that has been made. So, I support anybody looking for state but then, it should be a viable state. Because, when we were going for the creation, we said that we are viable enough to be made into a state. You don’t just go and create a state, No.

Look at the viability of a particular geo-graphical area that is looking for the state and above all, the number of people. But honestly, I support state creation because it brings rapid development if we have good leadership for that state.

It appears that Nigeria has experimented several types and kinds and systems of government: Parliamentary, Military, Diarchical, and now Presidential as copied from the United State in 1979. Now, some quarters are calling for a return to Parliamentary and the scrap of the National Assembly.

Which side of this argument do you belong?

Well, I am not in full support of whole sum of Presidential or Parliamentary systems. But what I will advocate is let us sit down and devise a system that suits our culture and our environment and peculiarities.

We have tried the Parliamentary system. We are now in the Presidential system. Absolutely, the Presidential system is very, very expensive for our liking. So, we have tried the two and the two have not fully served us.

So, what do we do? Let’s sit down and create our own model. Why must we be copy cats? Why must we copy hook, line and sinker, everything from another country? Why can’t we sit down and model our system in line with our own peculiarities?

Why can’t do things that will reflect our cultures, history, and even current status with the focus of what is going to happen when we develop better that this? Let us sit down and think, may be the amalgamation of the Parliamentary system, the presidential system, the French system or even the Chinese System. You see, no body has the monopoly of the definition of democracy. US and UK are democracies yet with different systems.

We call China a democracy because they have their own way of running their government. France is also a democracy. Iran has their own. So, why can’t we sit down and say this is how we want our democracy to be?

Let’s not wait for any definition from any dictionary or anybody, let’s define it according to our peculiarity and then evolve a system of government that will reflect our own peculiarities and our Africanness because before the coming of the whitemen and the institutionalization of Parliamentary and Presidential systems, there was a system. So, let’s sit down and work out a formula that will take care of our basic needs.

How would you assess the present government at the centre?

Despite all the negative comments we have, I think the government at the center has achieved a lot because we can see some changes and I can give you typical example with some changes the electricity.

It has now improved so tremendously that you can’t believe you are in Nigeria anymore. I know I use the public power source and I know a lot of people do, too.

From what we hear from others, it appears it has improved. And then, if not because of the recent incident of fuel scarcity, you can imagine, we have forgotten about line-ups for fuel in Nigeria.

But Nigerians don’t wish to appreciate and commend government for achieving this kind of things when we used to spend two or three days on the queue. Now, you don’t spend 30 minutes on the queue and get fuel.

It is only recently that the queue returned and the government is on top of the situation. Look at the renovation works going on at our airports; Abuja and Kano, and others.

In fact, I couldn’t believe it was Kano Airport when I used it recently. So, in the last one year, government at the centre has achieved a lot and we need to commend them. Of course, they are not perfect but they have  not failed.