• It’s obvious everybody lives on politics

• Those who annulled June 12 will face God’s judgement 

• Nigeria can’t run away from State Police, communal policing

MR Olawale Oshun, a former Chief Whip of the House of Representatives, is the National President of the Afenifere Renewal Group, ARG. The former lawmaker, who was on exile during the June 12, 1993 struggle, authored the book ‘Clapping with one hand, the story of MKO Abiola and June 12’.Oshun, in this interview, tackles politicians defecting from one political party to another saying they are greedy and lack discipline.He speaks on the leadership crisis rocking the pan-Yoruba socio-political organization, Afenifere, noting that the South West is losing opportunities as a result of the crisis.He bares his mind on other burning national issues. Excerpts:

By Dapo Akinrefon 

There is this argument that the ideals of June 12 are no longer with us. Do you agree with it? 

Politically, June 12 is a complex concept. Because, of course, it is typified by free and fair elections. Typified by hopes, which the military didn’t ever allow to materialise because they shortchanged the winner and stopped the election result from being announced. It also started a series of activities that  ultimately led to the death of the winner. When we speak of June 12, we will always glorify it with respect to the democratic concepts that it drew. The fact that a Nigerian won an election across the country and defeated his opponent even in his home state, the election was also acknowledged to have been the freest in terms of elections management in Nigeria. These are some of the great ideals. But they were hopes betrayed by the military. Because we never really had the opportunity of seeing Abiola in the mantle and fulfilling his promise. 

There may be nothing to compare other than the fact that we had a very free election that was undermined by the military.

Do you agree with those calling for punishment to those who were involved in the annulment of June 12?

Well, if you think that there must be atonement for sins that are deliberately committed against the state. If we think of that, yes one will go along that line. But then nation building is a very complicated one. Because we are not one anyway. Nigerians, we like to glorify what we should not glorify. I will say categorically that we are a people of different virtues, different values, different cultures and different perceptions about nation building. 

So if you take all that into consideration and we are still interested in going ahead and building the country without taking a step forward and three steps backward. We should not waste our time talking about punishing those who brought us to this level. Because that again will start generating its heat. It will start blinding the people who should take decisions because attention will be different depending on who is calling for attention. 

So the best thing is to let sleeping dogs lie. They have hurt this country. They have hurt millions of Nigerians. And between them and their God, I am sure that those who brought us to this level, know themselves. 

Some even came out to become or to pretend to become democratic figures. But they know themselves. Those who brought us to this level,  will face the judgement of God. It is not a question of whether we will now start a process of retribution. It will cast us back. 

The best thing is to look into the future. Because the differences still endure and so we must not add variations to the differences. Let us move ahead into the future.

Do you agree that Nigeria is drifting towards a one party state considering the wave of defections? 

Like President Bola Tinubu said that it is not his duty to help cater to the peace of the opposition parties. What I see is that we Nigerians are really not ready for the demands of democracy. Why I say this is that those who are defecting, why are they defecting? So the first thing is not about accusing the sitting government or the majority in government at the moment. 

I am sure those in government would be happy that this kind of discomfort is taking place among their opponents. 

But the truth is that what kind of discipline have those in opposition subjected themselves to? The mere fact that you are running a party does not mean that such a party can provide answers to all questions the same day. 

Due to their greed, because of their lack of discipline, those defecting are not ready to subject themselves to what democracy demands of them

That is the honest truth. The party really does not need that big margin to survive. It does not need it. They could still have been outside there playing their opposition roles, trying to juggle the government to review, look into its policies, so that at the end of the day, Nigeria is the best in terms of policy options, policy benedictions and all that. But everybody coming in, of course, it means that the policy options would diminish, and Nigerians would pay a price. Who do you blame? I blame those who cannot just withstand a little discomfort to help build the nation. Those who faced the military, they faced the military deliberately and conscientiously noting that it was better to have democracy. 

You can only blame those who cannot even endure being in opposition for a while. 

A friend of mine used to say, make sure you keep your second office, which is your job, your means of livelihood, and politics is not a means of livelihood. 

When you go into it, you want to go into it to serve, to render service. But it’s obvious now that everybody lives on politics. It is becoming, for me, a disease that I see, and that is why you will find a former vice president defecting. He should have defected to his house, to say, no, I have had enough.

How can we change this narrative?

What I see is that I just hope that the majority party in government would be conscious that it has a responsibility to evolve policies that would benefit Nigerians irrespective of culture, language and that would involve a democratisation process that recognises that the process of having the grand norms modified, that our democracy must recognise that we are different people, that one solution cannot apply to everybody. 

Which is to say that if the Yoruba-speaking people of Western region, if they decide, for instance, that the best form of government for them would be a parliamentary system of government, that they would be free to pursue that and have a parliamentary system of government, whereas there can be others, either because of their culture, they would prefer having a presidential system of government within their own. 

That recognition must be given to the wishes of the different sectors of Nigerians, that it is no longer sensible and beneficial to have everybody enclosed in one cocoon.

One cocoon in which we speak about the presidential system of government, which does not fit the Yoruba, whether their culture.

The Yoruba people have always relied on a system that takes into consideration dissent. That is why you have the king and the traditional council. 

The traditional council is so powerful that they can tell the king to go and hang. What I am saying is that if another part of the country wishes to have an autocratic or presidential system, they are free. In the same way, let the country be modified in a way that the resources belonging to each area can be mined by that area and agreed taxes are paid to the Federal Government. 

And it will be of a nature that can still sustain the federal government and enable it to support the weaker zones, if there is any. But there is none. 

Every zone in this country is sitting upon resources that, if properly managed, will make them very comfortable. So talking of fiscal federalism in terms of the restructuring, rather than this moment when the Federal Government takes hold of everything.

Devolution of power in a way that everybody can determine to rule itself, have its constitution but have a relationship with the big centre. You can still have it and have one country that recognises the diversities. You are not talking of unity now because unity comes from the heart. But when you speak of unifying people, how do you unify? That I must take your own views or not be opposing your own views simply because we must appear to be having a country where there is no dispute. No. We must all recognise that the system of governance in every area can change and still benefit the country. That fiscal federalism can take place where everybody sits atop of his own resources and still pays to the federal government sufficient resources to run the central government. But not one in which the central government takes all the resources away and starts giving out handouts to the original owners of the resources.

You said something about devolution of power. There has been clamour for state people to address the worsening insecurity across the country. Do you support this agitation?

Those who oppose state police say the state governors will abuse it. Is it not possible for federal agents to abuse federal police? This is who we are. Even those at the centre now know that without federating policing, federating units, independent policing, that you cannot secure the country. I mean, it is so obvious. See what is happening in Benue State. We are not making noise in the South-West. It is not because strikes are not taking place here. 

All over, our farmers cannot go to the farms. These are practical things. I don’t know whether you live permanently in Lagos or you go to the hinterland. But it is there that our farmers are no longer free, safe to go to the farms as they used to. Incidentally, the 19 northern governors have come out in support of state policing. So what is delaying it? What is delaying it? I dare any southern governor to oppose it because they know that it will make it easier for them to control the criminality that is ongoing. 

As you speak, all across the South-West and many parts of the country, they speak of illegal miners.

Even Federal Government agencies speak about illegal miners. Who are the illegal miners? That you don’t know, that you don’t see them operate, that move machines, move resources, move helicopters. 

So when you speak about them as if you are talking of abstract things, but if the state’s policing is there and the state or the federating units is conscious that even its interest, the interest of his people are being jeopardised by criminals, it will have no choice than to have a strong policing system. 

The federal police cannot do the job. Even the armed forces, we have seen from the lapses that have taken place recently regarding the incursions of bandits and terrorists, that even the armed forces are not coping. If they are not coping, how can the police alone cope? So you will need this federating unit policing up to communal policing.

You can’t run away from it. And I am surprised at the silence of other parts of the country, but the north is ready for it now. 

There was a time it was the South-West that was ready, but even the governors are not saying anything. Maybe they are tired of speaking, but it is their turn to talk to their elected members. It is not just about talking, to tell them they have no homes to come back to if they cannot spearhead the amendment of the constitution with regard to state policing.

The South-West came up with DAWN, the Development Agenda of Western Nigeria and I know that you are fully involved in it. All of a sudden we now have so many development commissions across the country. Do you think all these development commissions will address the issues regarding development and other social, political issues in the country?

For me, there is some confusion when you look at the concept, but then it is described as a zonal development commission. When it started with the NDDC and then NEDC, they were specifically to address issues of insecurity, of dislocation arising from the destruction that took place from insecurity. But now I think the focus is shifting to being agents of development, because when you say South-West Development Commission, luckily we have not been through any major terrorist destructions, even though you can see here and there. But what that then presupposes is that you are having an agency, if properly focused, can harmonise developments, integrate developments.

Development has both its theoretical concept and its practical concept, and for most parts what DAWN was involved in was leading a focus on policy. A focus on development policy, coordinating various arms of governments across the states, but with the proper funding that this South-West Commission, if I can be specific, will be receiving from the federal government, even though part of it will be coming from the states. Whatever we take it to be, if the focus is right, like we know our problems in the southwest, it can determine to focus on those problems, like power generation.

The South-West used to be the centre, hubris of industrial development, industrial productivity, but it is no longer so because there is power failure. So if you have a South-West Development Commission that is not thinking of all the social services of government, that is just focused on one or two, I mean, in economics or in development parlance, we do have this concept of stimulus. You have a body that just focuses on one or two areas, let us take power, let us take the railway as a form of transportation.

If, for instance, we focus on those two, well, of course, DAWN will still continue with his harmonisation process with all the various state governments, suggesting policies, thinking out policies, relating and harmonising with them policies, but this agency, with the kind of money that is coming to them, if they have the right focus, can just pick one or two that will galvanise the economy. And here, power is the most important. Well, of course, security is a social function of existing governments, so nothing concerns them about that, but they can focus on power generation and transmission.

Luckily, that has been taken off the exclusive list. They can focus on rail as a means of transport. Luckily, also, that has been taken off the exclusive list, so they can focus on these two. 

If we have an efficient rail service linking all the South-West state capitals, and we can boast of even 15 hours of power in every hamlet, you will see the explosion that will take place. When I say explosion, it is on the positive side. 

So to that extent, they may be special purpose vehicles. Initially, I was thinking that even NDDC and NEDC will just have a lifespan of about 10, and their respective state governments will take over, but that has not been the intention. I think for Yoruba people, my own attitude now is, rather than criticising, let us look at how to take advantage. What is the positive side? And for the South-West Development Commission, the positive side is that they can look into just one, two, three areas, governments will take over.  What is the positive side? And for the South-West Development Commission, the positive side is that they can look into just one, two, three areas that the states who are dissipated, that have to look into about 30, 32 sectors with 30, 40 ministers. No, they do not need that. They just pick one or two areas that will be the stimulus of growth and power generation is the most important, followed by rail transportation, because we should be tired of Okada, Marwa, Volkswagen, 14-seater. No, the world has since gone past that. We should be talking of a mass transit that is taking and discharging 5,000, 10,000 people in 15, 20 minutes. That is the way to go.

Afenifere leadership crisis 

I think the Yoruba people, if we are coming back to our home base now, that the Yoruba people need to blame one another for all the crisis that has bedeviled them. Because the leadership crisis in Afenifere has limited the opportunities that the South-West would have had. When the late Abraham Adesanya and others were running the organisation’s affairs, they could look at the face of any governor, tell any governor off. But who will do that in Yorubaland now? Everybody is running after one governor or the other for contracts, for attention, appointments for their children. When Adesanya was there at the original Afenifere, which of the governors could he not talk to? At least they could offer solutions, they could call them together. There were regular meetings in Ijebu-Igbo. There were regular consultations. It can still be stimulated. The ordinary Yoruba people in various areas need to start nudging those in office, their governors, exposing those who are carting away our resources, those who are living beyond their means. The ordinary Yoruba people have that responsibility.

Do you still see Afenifere regaining its lost glory?

Well, they have no option than to do so. Not long ago, Afenifere Renewal Group had a retreat. I think we advertised our position that it’s in the interest of Afenifere, whether of Akure or Ilesha now. 

Luckily, Ilesha is not too far from Akure, at least not as far as Ijebu-Igbo. So maybe, now that it has come close, they will start coming close, but they have got to resolve their differences. 

Afenifere still has that common goal, that common objective of welfarism for their citizens, for all Yoruba citizens.

I don’t think there’s any Yoruba, genuine Yoruba leader who is not concerned with what is happening. But the truth is that they have to come together because the differences are not even ideological, they are personality. Personality difference is being oiled and driven by the younger elements who want attention, who want positions, who want appointments. But I am sure that at some point in time, all these mistakes will be realised. 

The Yoruba people, in terms of governance, seek welfarist tendencies all the time because that is who we are. That is who we are. If for instance the two Afenifere have gone their different ways on the basis of, okay, this is a capitalist tendency or this is a welfarist tendency, then you can say, there are differences. But now you still tell them Afenifere, love yourself, love your neighbour, love the other person and they still claim it. None of them dare change their names.

And it is because they know that is the crux of the matter. You can quarrel. Even the nomenclature, nobody wants to change it. Because they know that that is the binding thing, that you love yourself, you must love your neighbour. 

And if that is the case, in terms of our upbringing, in terms of our culture, in terms of our values, these differences will ebb at some point in time.

When will that be?

It is because it is being oiled by politics. I speak of the second office. A lot of people have lost their offices. Then the second contention I want to make is that there is no profession now, not even the AI people talk about that will yield the kind of returns that political office holders make from their remuneration. “I mean, nobody talks about it because they themselves do not want to talk about it. They would be ashamed to talk about it. A counsellor earns more than a professor. What country does that? A professor in this country now maybe goes home with about N600 or N700,000, which is just allowances for some top office holders