•How military destroyed Nigeria

•Why Middle Belt is not happy with Nigeria

•Nothing like monolithic North

•How I would handle Natasha as Senate President

By Chioma Gabriel, Editor Special Features

Former Senate President, Ameh Ebute, in this interview answers questions about the happenings in the Senate and Nigeria, saying that a monolithic North does not exist and that the North-Central geo-political zone has been marginalised over the years.

Things have gone bad since fuel subsidy removal. What is your take?

Well, we are pushing ahead. I don’t have much to say other than we are not going backwards, we are making progress.

Things didn’t get bad from this government. Things have been bad from past governments. Well, because of the governance that didn’t take us anywhere, especially the oil subsidies. People were just stealing money. With the removal of the oil subsidy, the prices of items went up, and I am sure that as time goes on, it will come down as well.

This issue of removal of fuel subsidy has lingered on for a long time and we needed somebody with courage to remove it as Bola (President Tinubu) has done. I don’t know why anything you do, Nigerians would complain especially now that they are suffering because of the removal of subsidy. They are seriously complaining, and like I said earlier, things will change for the better.

Things got worse since the president made that pronouncement…

The bad times set in with the removal, inflation set in with the removal, isn’t it?  Things will change for the better.

One thing I like about this administration is that the tax reform is targeting the rich in favour of the poor. So, I think with that approach, things will soon fall in line.

It is because of the changes that have taken place from the old way of doing things to the new way of doing things whereby Nigerians begin to experience hardship. But, as the government has said, we better give them a little time to see if there will be changes.

You were once Senate president, compare your time to this time, it is like we are having a Senate of commotion

There is a Senate of commotion because of the personalities involved.

The senators of today are not as patient as the senators that we were at that time. That is the cause of the commotion.

The commotion has nothing to do with the functions of the Senate. The commotion is personal to some senators. I am sure that very soon the hot water will get cold.

If Natasha (Akpoti-Uduaghan) respects the constituted authority of the Senate, she is behaving as if she was in the US Senate or London parliament. The African system is not the same.

The commotion was caused by personal confrontation. That has nothing to do with the main function of the Senate in making laws, confirming presidential appointments, and passing the budget, putting money in the government’s purse to carry out many projects.

Those are the main functions of the Senate. But this one of quarreling and throwing chairs has nothing to do with the main function of the Senate. There should be a conducive atmosphere to enable the main function to go ahead.

So, if you were the Senate president, how  would you resolve that issue?

If I were the Senate president, I wouldn’t be bothered about the insubordination that has taken place. Everybody has his own approach to life. I always think that the man took offense against the behaviour of some of the senators.

That’s why there has been commotion all along. If I were the sitting president now, I wouldn’t have taken offense about the behaviour of the lady.

Many people are saying that this current Senate is a rubber stamp

This depends on personal assessment of individuals. Some people are saying that the whole National Assembly is a rubber stamp. Others will disagree with that assessment. But the fact that they are cooperating, and collaborating with the executive does not make it a rubber stamp National Assembly. I think because of the cooperation they are having with the executive; the government is moving as smoothly as ever.

The executive is praising the National Assembly. The National Assembly is working along with the executive to have a smooth running of government.

This thing about Natasha is distracting the Senate from its original duty. They are not doing anything. Tthey are all talking about sexual harassment, Natasha, etc. That is not what the people voted them in to do.

But it will die down after a week or two. That is not the main function of senators. If you look at that alone, it is not good information to Nigerians.

But we can tolerate certain things. It has happened and people will know how to settle the issue and put it behind them.

Natasha has gone international. She has gone to the UN, and IPU…

Well, that is not patriotic enough of her to blackmail the institution of the National Assembly. My take is that we have our sovereignty. These institutions that she has gone to have no control over the happenings in the National Assembly, the executive or Nigeria as a country.

She has just climbed power. She is the one who has invited this harassment by her comments and behaviour. So, there is not much those international institutions can do to Nigeria because of the principle of sovereignty.

We are a sovereign nation, and we know how to handle our matters by ourselves.

So, to you, her actions are of no consequence?

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that going up and down, going to international institutions will not have much effect on us because she is not the first lady in the Senate. The First Lady of Nigeria was a senator. There was no commotion.

There are so many other ladies who are senators, there was no commotion.

Maybe because her mother, they say, is from Ukraine. She is trying to turn our National Assembly into a European parliament which shouldn’t be.

I am not saying that it has no consequence, but I am saying that it is the result of our behaviour to the leadership of the National Assembly.

Many are taking it seriously, they are asking that Akpabio be probed publicly on this issue and public investigation be made about Natasha’s alleged sexual harassment

I don’t know what to say. If Akpabio’s conduct has gone contrary to expectations, then the senators are the ones to remove him. Not because of any outside investigation about sexual harassment.

Meeting a woman cannot be proved by investigation. It is very difficult for an investigation to reveal when a man and a woman meet. But if the behaviour of the Senate President has brought some disrepute to the Senate, the Senators are the ones to voice out the disrepute and come up with a solution. And the solution is removal or impeachment.

So many Senate Presidents have been impeached, but I think it has not got to that extent.

What is your take on what your party, the All Progressives Congress, APC, is doing to the opposition parties like the Peoples Democratic Party, PDP, in Rivers? 

What are they doing to opposition parties? I know there is a problem between the governor of Rivers State (Siminalayi Fubara) and (Nyesom) Wike, which has caused the party members to be divided. I’m not sure who is doing what. It is Wike who is doing what he wants to do to the PDP. It’s not APC who wants to do anything to the PDP. Wike is APC for sure, he has no future in PDP.

He claims to be PDP but is anti-PDP

That’s right. That’s what I understand, the same thing with Benue matters. The claim of leadership of the party at the state level is a problem between Fubara and Wike.  To determine who is the leader there. The same thing is happening in Benue.

It looks like there is a calculated attempt to destroy the strong opposition party with a view to reaping the electoral benefits.

It looks like that. But if people are foolish enough to destroy themselves, other people, if it’s even possible for me to destroy you, especially in terms of election, then why wouldn’t I do it so that I can be successful all the time?

If you have any strategy for destroying your opponent, if an opposition party gives you a fight, there is nothing bad in it.

There is no strong opposition now

The PDP and others constitute the opposition. What is happening in Rivers State alone does not affect the strength of the PDP nationwide.

The National Working Committee is building, and  strategizing for the next election, and the next presidential election. If they combine with other political parties, it doesn’t affect them majorly.

Last week, former Governor of Kaduna State, Nasir el-Rufai left the APC and decamped to the Social Democratic Party, SDP. Do you think he will make any impact politically in this regime?

It depends on the number of supporters he has and how aggrieved people are against the government in power.

Those are the factors that his progress in SDP will depend on. The number of supporters he can garner, and how aggrieved people are against the government of the day, will go a long way to determine the future of his SDP

But SDP is not a strong party

It was under the SDP (late Chief MKO) Abiola won election, it was under SDP that I became Senate President. As long as some of us are concerned, SDP is a strong party. If it is properly organized with good politicians joining, it will make a headway. It was under SDP that the most credible election took place. As you are aware, Abiola won in 1993.

But the calibre of people then and now is not the same

It is not the same but the people who can move things, if they can enter SDP, they will move things there.

Everybody is strategizing for 2027 don’t you think it’s too early?

I think so. I agree it’s too early to waste time in 2027. My advice would be for any officeholder to perform credibly before they think of 2027. That should inform a change in the way politicians behave.

During the last protests against bad governance in the North, some people were calling for a military takeover

They are mad people. I’ve suffered personally from military takeover. Most of my successes were trampled by the military takeover. So, there is no time that I will call for a military takeover again.

All these comments have been made from frustration from what Nigerians are going through. It’s nothing to be taken seriously.

Somebody did say that not all military regimes are bad

They are all bad. The problem that we are having today arose from the military regimes when they introduced the system of settlement syndrome. And that settlement syndrome now led Nigerians to a wrong value system. And money is now the order of the day. Even a child that is born today is thinking of being a millionaire, even while in the mother’s womb.

That is a problem. That has made some Nigerians to become kidnappers and so on.

There are so many vices on the streets because everybody wants to be a millionaire. If you cannot be a millionaire legally, you can be a millionaire illegally.

That’s what some people are doing. Being a millionaire legally is to kidnap people, take them to the forest, and demand money through commitment and robbery. So, these are the things that are introduced by the military.

The settlement syndrome, the money, the preference of money for merit and integrity are damaging us. So that was the genesis of the things that are happening today. So, there is no time that any military government can compare to a democratically elected government.

Because when Buhari came, he took over from and then, later in the year, another military government came. It was the settlement syndrome.

It did it to a lot of the people. After the settlement syndrome, money became the order of the day. When you become a military, there is no room for merit and integrity.

Achievement does not depend on merit and integrity. Achievement depends on how much one has in his pocket. And that brought a lot of vices. Kidnapping, armed robbery, theft, and so on and so forth.

So, you believe it is the military that caused all those things now?

The settlement syndrome is giving money to people to buy their support. It continues from the military, and it enters civilian politics.

It enters politicians’ campaigns. The bad side of it, in society, is the prevalence, the emergence of armed robbery, kidnapping. We never knew about kidnapping before in Nigeria.

Why is it prevalent now? Because of the way people are dealing with money. The money is not available to everybody. Those who have no access to it go into kidnapping and robbery.

So, it is said that the North is not happy with this regime, how bad is it?

Well, even when Jonathan was in the office, he informed us that he was on call to talk about politics and change.

And some people were asking me whether I am a Northerner. I said, no. I don’t think I am.

I am a North-Central man. I am neither a Northerner nor a Southerner. I am a Middle-Belt man.

I have been dominated, I have been neglected by politicians from the South-West, and the South and North-West. So, what can I say? I believe that we have been sidelined. We are neither there nor here.

So, it is better we hold on to what we are initially.

But in those days of the military, most of the leaders were from the Middle-Belt…

Because in those days, during the colonial period, if you were not a liberal man, or if you were not answering Igbo man, South-West, Hausa man you would have no access to employment.

The only employment open to our people is the military, police and army; for them to go and fight and be killed. So that is why you found them.

Now that the police and army have become profitable ventures, the other people have domination. The people are not as many as they used to be in the army and police anymore.

So, the North-Central or the Middle-Belt are not happy with either the North-West or the South?

I don’t know whether others are thinking the way I am thinking. Not all of them would be thinking this way. But my belief is that they have been cheated.

The average North-Central man has been cheated by the North-West, South, North and South-West.

So, there is no more monolithic North?

No, I have never believed in the monolithic North. When the North is classified as far and low, I don’t know how to define it. I don’t believe in the classification of monolithic North.

If the policy does not favour them, then they are not united North.

You said something about insecurity. You are a farmer, how is it affecting your business?

I am not a farmer, but I live with farmers. Insecurity is a terrible thing. The government has no solution to it. It is affecting farm production. I don’t know how we are going to put that behind us one day, and enjoy the normal situation that we were in before all these devices set in. That may not happen during my time again. I don’t know. But I am praying that it does.

So, you have jettisoned farming?

I am not a farmer now. I have a small thing producing water in the village. Bottle and sachet water is my main business.

I am a lawyer and very much so. Even on Monday, before the court of appeal in Makurdi I have a chamber.

So how do we tackle this issue? You talk about kidnapping, unnecessarily killings

We empathize with the importance of money in society. People can steal.

And we are lucky. The change of value system will go a long way in bringing down all the problems in the country. We change from the go and die approach to money; that we must have money, whether you make it legally or illegally. So, we change the value system. We must change our value system.

And then progress will depend on integrity and intelligence and what you call it, merit. I would tell Nigerians that the worst period has come and gone.

You should be patient. Before any good thing comes out, there must be a price for it. That is exactly what is happening.

Before we begin to have improvement in education, infrastructure, and so on, there must be this type of situation that people are in now. So, I tell them to be patient with the government so that eventually the good times will come. People will now forget what they have gone through in the past.